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Old 11-24-2019, 01:01 PM   #21
Alessandro
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Originally Posted by nxsnexus View Post
Hello!

I did my best in following your advice by putting each player first and using it how it's advised in the scouting screen. I also did a lot of tweaking in each unit's tactic and then setup a global tactic. Before that I lost 7-2 against the Sharks (They got 45 shots while I only got 21). My players GR was quite low, lower that I would expect from such players. After the new setup following you advice, I lost 5-2 against the Sharks but the interesting thing is that they had 29 shots while I got 35. If I try to interpret this results, I would say that I had overall better tactics offering more shots on goal and better defense but that the players were missing something. And I don't know what they're missing. During this second match, I also had a whole lot of PIM: 10 for my team (8 for the Sharks) while I had 6 in the first game (they got 4).

I chose to didn't setup tactics with a "stay in your lane" approach as Alessandro suggested for beginner but trying to use one of the best roles they could get while trying to keep a balanced set of roles per line. For instance, in my first line there is (from left to right, Forwards first) Marchessault as Perimeter shooter, Karlsson as Counterattacking forward, Stone as Backchecking Forward, Theodore as Mobile Defenseman and McNabb as Crease-Clearing Defenseman.

I still have very blurry points on how it works though. Like what's happening for unit tactics when all you players have individual setup and what happens to global tactics when all units have their own set of tactics. And I still don't know how to make my forwards shoot somewhere specifics on goal nor do I know how to scout my next oponent's team or goalie before the match (as Adam told me to).
The stay on your lane approach refers to the unit tactics, not to players.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:39 PM   #22
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Great thread guys. Keep it going. I'm learning a lot just reading this.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:42 PM   #23
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Having a 2D visualization of the games would be great, would probably attract more players but would take a whole lot of time to create from scratch.
There's no need to go gung-ho and try and add the 2D overnight. Maybe it can start from a more in-depth representation, then to get to a real 2D in a couple of iterations.
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Alessandro View Post
The stay on your lane approach refers to the unit tactics, not to players.

Yeah, by re-reading me I saw I've written that. What I meant is that I feel that the some tactics fit better certain players roles on a given line and I tried my best to chose those.


I lost all my games since I tried my new tactics. I think I'll try this "stay in you lane" approach. Let's see if I can manage some good stuff with that.

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Old 11-24-2019, 06:00 PM   #25
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There's no need to go gung-ho and try and add the 2D overnight. Maybe it can start from a more in-depth representation, then to get to a real 2D in a couple of iterations.
I agree !
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Old 11-25-2019, 02:33 AM   #26
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Minor adjustments are fine, but if you are flipping full-scale tactics, your team is going to punish you for it. No hockey team flips their entire tactical system game by game. Players need time to grow in a system.

As for you; it's tough to give diagnoses without seeing the stats specifically. Focus on your Offensive and Defensive Game Ratings to see where you're succeeding and failing. From there, make some corresponding moves. Don't be afraid to try and change the tempo of the game, or choose how often your players shoot.


Does the game actually mimic this? I thought tactics can be changed without concern about players adapting because that isn’t built into the game yet? In other words, players in the game don’t actually learn or get used to any particular tactic.


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Old 12-06-2019, 10:12 PM   #27
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Every team has strengths and weaknesses, yes. It's just a fact of life. When you're playing an 82 game schedule, you don't have time to adjust tactically to an individual opponent like in Football or even to a small degree, baseball. It's a fast sport.

Remember, tactics are based on Player > Unit > Global. While it's fine to mess a bit with individual player tactics, Unit changes aren't great more than say once a year, but Global are changes you can make each game. Check your scouting reports on opposing goalies and change where your team is shooting. But find chemistry that works. You'll often see in real life coaches doing "line mixes" to try something new. Really, right now there's no better example than the Winnipeg Jets. They've been swapping lines basically due to injury but watching them play, individual players have taken on different roles in their new line combos which has been interesting to see. Whereas a player like Perrault has changed his game from a playmaker, he's now more an up and down winger. Or Kyle Connor going to more a Power Forward role when he's playing with Scheifele and Laine verus being a Perimeter Shoooter when he was with Wheeler and Scheifele.

I've said it before and will continue to say it: It's okay to continue to lean on your AI to set up Roles and Tactics, especially if you're not sure. I do it a lot still just to see what the AI thinks from time to time.
I wasn't aware there was an option to change where your team target their shots? Where is it located?
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:46 AM   #28
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I wasn't aware there was an option to change where your team target their shots? Where is it located?
I believe I quoted that from something I had written for a previous tactical system and it is no longer in the game.
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Old 12-14-2019, 10:06 AM   #29
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It would be really good to see Jeff do a tactical based playthrough in a future video.
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Old 12-16-2019, 01:41 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Alessandro View Post
There's no need to go gung-ho and try and add the 2D overnight. Maybe it can start from a more in-depth representation, then to get to a real 2D in a couple of iterations.
Using Xs for player positions and movements during a game would be ok for me, with different colour for X for home and away teams.
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Old 12-17-2019, 03:51 PM   #31
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IMO there should be a match analysis tool or smth. This way we keep guessing. It's really not up to the standard. Hard to make any adjustments with just basic stats. Just thinking of the Football Manager here. FHM in that regard is like OOTP, there it works well with the minimalist approach but hockey isn't baseball and tactics are way more advanced. No getting any analysis isn't cutting it. I have enjoyed the game for what it is. But now I'm getting to the point where I need something more. Really hope FHM will takes steps in that direction next year or else I might be passing for the first time.

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Old 12-17-2019, 05:24 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by geisterhome View Post
IMO there should be a match analysis tool or smth. This way we keep guessing. It's really not up to the standard. Hard to make any adjustments with just basic stats. Just thinking of the Football Manager here. FHM in that regard is like OOTP, there it works well with the minimalist approach but hockey isn't baseball and tactics are way more advanced. No getting any analysis isn't cutting it. I have enjoyed the game for what it is. But now I'm getting to the point where I need something more. Really hope FHM will takes steps in that direction next year or else I might be passing for the first time.
Game Ratings are giving you those underlying numbers about how players are preforming in their tactical roles, and why it's broken down into total and offensive and defensive. Further, you also have just about every advanced Statistic you can choose to use by sorting by Advanced Stats in your roster screen.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:59 PM   #33
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Further, you also have just about every advanced Statistic you can choose to use by sorting by Advanced Stats in your roster screen.
I wrote about it in other posts, although those ended up being quite long. But still, even ratio stats or goalie activity (skating, puckhandling, passing) seem like obvious candidates to be added. Or foul/penalty drawn stats. I would also support suggestion about post match analysis, heatmaps and action maps are very useful tool to quickly understand if the tactic is working as intended.
This is important for next point I wanted to bring: presentation and user friendliness of tactic menu. I know that it's much easier for long time fans to understand the options, but even that doesn't help in some cases. Some names are different and you can't even find tactic using them in search engines. Even if you get hockey plays and strategies book, it has different names.
PP/PK tactics are mixed in one pool, even though some assymetrical ones(1 wing press, 1 wing retreats) can't be run in 3-on-5. Same with PP.
Two vertical columns where you choose options just scream for being reworked into column+animation. Would be much easier to intuitively understand what tactic it is, and what it does. Tactic sites have animations or just scheme pictures, even that can be better than just text.
Also problem with text, that even though it informs you on important things, it has to be short and it's not always done optimally. To stay on PP/PK topic: different options ask for different skills, center is either static screener with no need for range or he can be behind the net playmaker that won't need physicality at all. Same with wings. Sometimes there are "weak/strong vs" for uneven strength lineups too, press PK options are much better vs shooting defenders with mediocre pass&read and vice versa.
Maybe changing block uptop (Offense, Defense, Speed, Toughness, Skill) might be useful for previous paragraph. There's no need for most of this in 5vs4 and offense is obvious too, since you get your best players in there (except for C in regards to faceoffs&screening). So adding range, skating&puckhandling, read&pass for PP will bring much more usefull information. Right now it travels from even strength, and so do tactical options from 4-on-5 to 3-on-5. PK works same way, change it to checking, def read, positioning, blocking shots&bravery, speed&stickchecking for pressing/switching options. You won't need toughness/hitting here, so no need to keep it in, even if you're defending.
As for Game Ratings, I provided example for GK, and I feel there are many other roles or circumstances that get mistreated by GR. 3rd line aiming to keep in even in +/- or minimize minus gets no love for their effort. Especially forwards. Defenders get all time scores while their shift buddies are at below 60. I don't want to bad mouth for the sake of it, but let's say top15 defender (by custom rating), and top15 defensive center playing together with proper roles won't both have sameish ratings. And it's not that center is so great, other team just pass it to forwards and your defender gets positive actions. Then it should work some way the other way around, but it doesn't. I don't know enough about GR and how it functions in terms of isolation/correlation with other factors, but even freak created player can't get high DR w/o help of insane blocked shots numbers.Perhaps changing criteria for forwards, since their impact can't be that significant. Because I got Hagelin top5+ in defensive rating, and put him in pressing schemes and it didn't work that well at all. Even though there's not counter for what he does from the side of opposing defenders (who he presses/forces). If he makes forced pass and defender gets resulting action, he should get some love too. I don't know if engine/GR goes to these depths, but at least that would be my guess to question why that happens. I saw that in other managers/sports too. On offense risky playmakers take all the turnover/giveaways on themselves, to make it easier for other more simple players to benefit from simpler plays they're now required to do. So while individual numbers of playmaker increase, giveaway numbers of all other players decrease and team wins on average as a result. But I haven't mentioned that increase or correlation. Defenders do well regardless, while forwards struggle and don't get enough boost from other player or indirect contributions.
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Old 12-28-2019, 07:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ExeR View Post
I wrote about it in other posts, although those ended up being quite long. But still, even ratio stats or goalie activity (skating, puckhandling, passing) seem like obvious candidates to be added. Or foul/penalty drawn stats. I would also support suggestion about post match analysis, heatmaps and action maps are very useful tool to quickly understand if the tactic is working as intended.
This is important for next point I wanted to bring: presentation and user friendliness of tactic menu. I know that it's much easier for long time fans to understand the options, but even that doesn't help in some cases. Some names are different and you can't even find tactic using them in search engines. Even if you get hockey plays and strategies book, it has different names.
PP/PK tactics are mixed in one pool, even though some assymetrical ones(1 wing press, 1 wing retreats) can't be run in 3-on-5. Same with PP.
Two vertical columns where you choose options just scream for being reworked into column+animation. Would be much easier to intuitively understand what tactic it is, and what it does. Tactic sites have animations or just scheme pictures, even that can be better than just text.
Also problem with text, that even though it informs you on important things, it has to be short and it's not always done optimally. To stay on PP/PK topic: different options ask for different skills, center is either static screener with no need for range or he can be behind the net playmaker that won't need physicality at all. Same with wings. Sometimes there are "weak/strong vs" for uneven strength lineups too, press PK options are much better vs shooting defenders with mediocre pass&read and vice versa.
Maybe changing block uptop (Offense, Defense, Speed, Toughness, Skill) might be useful for previous paragraph. There's no need for most of this in 5vs4 and offense is obvious too, since you get your best players in there (except for C in regards to faceoffs&screening). So adding range, skating&puckhandling, read&pass for PP will bring much more usefull information. Right now it travels from even strength, and so do tactical options from 4-on-5 to 3-on-5. PK works same way, change it to checking, def read, positioning, blocking shots&bravery, speed&stickchecking for pressing/switching options. You won't need toughness/hitting here, so no need to keep it in, even if you're defending.
As for Game Ratings, I provided example for GK, and I feel there are many other roles or circumstances that get mistreated by GR. 3rd line aiming to keep in even in +/- or minimize minus gets no love for their effort. Especially forwards. Defenders get all time scores while their shift buddies are at below 60. I don't want to bad mouth for the sake of it, but let's say top15 defender (by custom rating), and top15 defensive center playing together with proper roles won't both have sameish ratings. And it's not that center is so great, other team just pass it to forwards and your defender gets positive actions. Then it should work some way the other way around, but it doesn't. I don't know enough about GR and how it functions in terms of isolation/correlation with other factors, but even freak created player can't get high DR w/o help of insane blocked shots numbers.Perhaps changing criteria for forwards, since their impact can't be that significant. Because I got Hagelin top5+ in defensive rating, and put him in pressing schemes and it didn't work that well at all. Even though there's not counter for what he does from the side of opposing defenders (who he presses/forces). If he makes forced pass and defender gets resulting action, he should get some love too. I don't know if engine/GR goes to these depths, but at least that would be my guess to question why that happens. I saw that in other managers/sports too. On offense risky playmakers take all the turnover/giveaways on themselves, to make it easier for other more simple players to benefit from simpler plays they're now required to do. So while individual numbers of playmaker increase, giveaway numbers of all other players decrease and team wins on average as a result. But I haven't mentioned that increase or correlation. Defenders do well regardless, while forwards struggle and don't get enough boost from other player or indirect contributions.
Great post. I didn't go to such depths to be honest. Agree on the gamerating thing. Setting up tactics is a hassel. Figuring out if they work even (way) more so. I know some hockey, no expert by any means but for sure there are people who know less than me. I don't know how they figure out how good their tactics are in those stats and non-existing feedback.
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:52 AM   #35
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Maybe there could be some "hints" that can be deactivated by experienced players that are offering advice and explanation on tactics and line ups
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Old 12-30-2019, 07:00 AM   #36
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Maybe there could be some "hints" that can be deactivated by experienced players that are offering advice and explanation on tactics and line ups
It's better for game to have:
1) Animations/schemes to give you an idea of how tactic works (there are different options for same play) and to show you default actions so that you know how to build line (who passes to who, who shoots, who positions where f.e. center in front of goal or roams freely)
2) Synergy between tactical options, so that proper breakouts/entrances will work/perform better with correlated OZ offenses. Same for defense. This is not done even in other games that were mentioned as examples. And that leads to constant "make my eye bleed" tactics that make no sense. Better to have warnings, like "Hey, this is not how it supposed to work, do it only if there's some idea behind it". You don't calmly pass between defenders behind the net if you try to counter attack or play with tempo. But this is what happens all the time
What you're asking for is probably not suited for a game itself, but better done as guide by community or in manual. F.e. if you have hitting wing, you shouldn't instruct him through individual/player instructions. If he plays PK lines encouraging hitting will be very bad, so usually attacking/agro/backchecking/hitting is not done in player instructions. Since if he plays PP or PK requirements will change drastically, and even if he's not in lines, sometimes PK players are the ones getting penalties, and coach will need to put somebody in. So if your PK is at 75% maybe it's not your unit tactical choice but just your players trying to hit, not backcheck etc like they do in ES lines that you put it in for.
So making these explanations and examples is better done outside of game, because you already have popups with text for explanation of tactical options (like hitting more/less), but perhaps adding little "question mark" or warning might be good idea. But problem with that would be all the variety of possibilities. You can make it simple for hitting, but other options are much more complicated. McDavid is best sniper but I had him on decreased shooting for a reason and it worked as intended. So describing all the possibilities there will be tough. And even tougher to make them short and not trash the screen with tons of text

Last edited by ExeR; 12-30-2019 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 11:23 AM   #37
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Hi,

Just a question regarding the Tactical tendency.

Lets say that my 18 dressed skaters have speed from 14-18 Majority 16-18
but two players has 13.
Would it than not make sense to play with higher tempo?

Where is the actual crossroads on start on NHL from bad-avarage-good?
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