Im little dissappointed.

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by telamiina

So far EHM 2007 is better game than this.

That was the third version not the first one and Sport Interactive isn't a small company. Don't compare apple with orange...

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

That was the third version not the first one and Sport Interactive isn't a small company. Don't compare apple with orange...

I disagree with you on that one, comparing the 7 year old EHM is more than fair as it is FHM only "competitor". The difference for the debat shouldn't be that EHM in it's third version, but it had several updates/patches to correct bugs and crashes where FHM hasn't yet. If the day ever comes that the Devs use the defence, 'well they are in their x year so we can't add that' I will lose some faith. Of course things take time, but that's just an excuse and with that mindset FHM will always be behind it's competition.

Hopefully features and aspects of EHM push the devs of FHM to greater heights, and In some ways it already has.

[Zyllyx]

To be frank I'm getting a bit tired of the constant comparisons to EHM. First of all, the original Eastside Hockey Manager was significantly worse in nearly every respect than V1.0 of FHM (apart from the bugs and crashes which will hopefully be resolved by the patch today). It wasn't until EHM was revised to essentially be a Football Manager clone that it really started to take off, and even then the reason why so much was added in a relatively short timeframe was that EHM devs hard-coded many elements of the game instead of creating an expandable framework such as OOTP/FHM has.

I loved EHM 2005/2007 and I have played it right up until I bought FHM, but I'm not going to sit here and reminisce wistfully over how flawless EHM was because it certainly wasn't. It was miles behind Football Manager in development, it had its share of bugs and crashes, and if I'm being brutally honest it wasn't very much more realistic than FHM is in terms of AI and such.

Considering that FHM is being developed so that it expands instead of having to be virtually rewritten from the ground up for every version, I'm inclined to give the OOTP folks a lot of leeway. You can either build a mobile home or a mansion - the mobile home goes together faster but once it's there you're stuck with a prefab monstrosity. I believe at this point that FHM is going to be a mansion.

[pens66]

Originally Posted by Zyllyx

To be frank I'm getting a bit tired of the constant comparisons to EHM. First of all, the original Eastside Hockey Manager was significantly worse in nearly every respect than V1.0 of FHM (apart from the bugs and crashes which will hopefully be resolved by the patch today). It wasn't until EHM was revised to essentially be a Football Manager clone that it really started to take off, and even then the reason why so much was added in a relatively short timeframe was that EHM devs hard-coded many elements of the game instead of creating an expandable framework such as OOTP/FHM has.

Did you just compare a 12 (or 13?) year old freeware game to a professionally developed computer game in 2013? Come on...

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

I disagree with you on that one, comparing the 7 year old EHM is more than fair as it is FHM only "competitor".

Disagree all you want but it's a fact that EHM 2007 was the third version of the game not the unitial release who was far from perfect and had a lot of bugs also.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Disagree all you want but it's a fact that EHM 2007 was the third version of the game not the unitial release who was far from perfect and had a lot of bugs also.

I don't disagree with your fact, I disagreed with your opinion that comparing the two games is like apples and oranges. The fact is that EHM is an old game, yes with three releases and it will still be compared to FHM and my opinion is only it's accurate to do so for feature related items. I agree that FHM deserves leniency for bugs to be worked out but comparing the two games (bugs and crashes aside) is more than fair.

And to clarify, when I said "if the devs ever say '...well, it took FM or OOTP x amount of years to implement that' I would be very disappointed" only because proper planning and execution should be able to cut some of those times.

For example, OOTP does not have international play after 14 versions. The reason is because the amount of work to get it added after they made certain choices years prior has made it almost impossible. It would take major recoding and that's just something ootp can't afford because a lot of the other features people want will be ignored. The FHM team made the plan to implement it in a later version and planned accordingly when programming the game in it's early stages to not be handcuffed like OOTP was. If they have planned like that for each of their major future features, we will all get to see major advancement from version to version and in no time could be beyond other sport sims in terms of features, and not just EHM.

I don't know about you, but I would love to see the day that we are begging for a FHM feature to be implemented in OOTP opposed to the opposite...maybe one day.

I'm not looking to start a huge debate....i'm just trying to make the time go by faster until the update today!

[Zyllyx]

Originally Posted by pens66

Did you just compare a 12 (or 13?) year old freeware game to a professionally developed computer game in 2013? Come on...

Yes, I did, because you have to include the entirety of EHM's development cycle if you're going to make qualitative comparisons between it and FHM.

OOTP may be professionally-developed but it is not a large-scale gaming enterprise. The FHM team is an even smaller subset. So the parallels between the EHM freeware and FHM are more significant than you might think.

My point being that there is a false equivalency between EHM 2007 and FHM v1.0, so saying that "FHM suffers in comparison to EHM 2007" is kind of ludicrous. It's all a matter of context - if you take into account the development history of FHM to this point, it's actually rather impressive that they have gotten the game to where it is at this point, even with the crashes and bugs.

I'm not a fanboy, mind you - I'm still keeping a close watch on how this develops considering that I have a monetary investment in the game. But I've worked for big game design studios in the past and consequently I have a bit of perspective on this that others might not, so I thought I'd share a bit of it. Take it or leave it as you will...

[Zyllyx]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

I don't know about you, but I would love to see the day that we are begging for a FHM feature to be implemented in OOTP opposed to the opposite...maybe one day.

I think it'll actually happen, given what I've seen so far of the FHM team's philosophical bent towards design.

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

I don't disagree with your fact, I disagreed with your opinion that comparing the two games is like apples and oranges.

OK I read your comment in a different way... All I was saying is that it isn't honest to compare FHM 1.0 with EHM 2007, a comparaison between EHM free and FHM 1.0 make more sense as they are the first released version of their particular franchise. This is what I meant by the apple and orange thingy, I should have been clearer.

[Mafarfloune]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

OK I read your comment in a different way... All I was saying is that it isn't honest to compare FHM 1.0 with EHM 2007, a comparaison between EHM free and FHM 1.0 make more sense as they are the first released version of their particular franchise. This is what I meant by the apple and orange thingy, I should have been clearer.

I'm really not sure about that. If some company decided to launch a Hockey game similar to the EA Sports brand, I'm not sure there would be so many people saying it would be more honest to compare the game to NHL Hockey instead of NHL 14. New diplomacy game developers don't see their game compared to Civilization 1, and new city/theme building games aren't compared to the 1989 version of SimCity just to make people feel better.

Whenever a new game is launched (and the customer pays for it), regardless of the size of the team or the age of the project, it will and must be compared to the best product of the same genre, and judged accordingly.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by Mafarfloune

I'm really not sure about that. If some company decided to launch a Hockey game similar to the EA Sports brand, I'm not sure there would be so many people saying it would be more honest to compare the game to NHL Hockey instead of NHL 14. New diplomacy game developers don't see their game compared to Civilization 1, and new city/theme building games aren't compared to the 1989 version of SimCity just to make people feel better.

Whenever a new game is launched (and the customer pays for it), regardless of the size of the team or the age of the project, it will and must be compared to the best product of the same genre, and judged accordingly.

You are correct, but it is different for this niche genre of game. If it wasn't different ootp would never take on this project and most companies wouldn't as it wouldn't be sustainable. This is a low budget game, with only a couple paid people working on it as their job. Other companies risk everything and spend a lot of money developing the game with large staff full time. Those are extreamly large overheads that they hope pays off upon release and good reviews. The profits are so small on this type of game, any company that did that would be in the bigtime red and it would years if they were to see any return on the investment - chances are they wouldn't be able to continue to that point unless they won the lottery and didn't care. OOTP may very well see some ok money from this franchise, but most likely it will not be coming in the first version and that was almost inevitable.

They took a big risk in branching off from baseball, and I hope it pays off because without them we would have nothing but baseball and soccer universes named after NHL teams. Oh and of course the outdated EHM07.

[Zyllyx]

Originally Posted by Mafarfloune

Whenever a new game is launched, regardless of the size of the team or the age of the project, it will and must be compared to the best product of the same genre, and judged accordingly.

So long as it is not judged outlandishly, i.e. expecting a game with only a couple independent engineers and barely a year from greenlight on a brand new project to immediately be on a competitive level with a game with over half a decade of development by a corporate-backed multi-developer team.

In other words, it's fine to cite the previous game in terms of desired features and so forth, but categorically unfair to expect the new game to start at the finished-product level of the previous game - particularly when they are completely independent codebases, programming philosophies, and resources.

[pens66]

Originally Posted by Zyllyx

Yes, I did, because you have to include the entirety of EHM's development cycle if you're going to make qualitative comparisons between it and FHM.

OOTP may be professionally-developed but it is not a large-scale gaming enterprise. The FHM team is an even smaller subset. So the parallels between the EHM freeware and FHM are more significant than you might think.

My point being that there is a false equivalency between EHM 2007 and FHM v1.0, so saying that "FHM suffers in comparison to EHM 2007" is kind of ludicrous. It's all a matter of context - if you take into account the development history of FHM to this point, it's actually rather impressive that they have gotten the game to where it is at this point, even with the crashes and bugs.

I'm not a fanboy, mind you - I'm still keeping a close watch on how this develops considering that I have a monetary investment in the game. But I've worked for big game design studios in the past and consequently I have a bit of perspective on this that others might not, so I thought I'd share a bit of it. Take it or leave it as you will...

Riz programmed the freeware EHM version while studying at university. So I guess the OOTP studio is quite a bit ahead in terms of resources and to bring up the freeware EHM in order to defend FHM is really not appropriate. Especially because Riz couldn't take anything from the freeware version and use it in the first SI version (except his experience...), because he simply had to start from scratch.

I get your point that it is tough to compare EHM2007 to FHM1.0. However, you have to start somewhere and these comparisons are inevitable. Saying that "FHM suffers in comparison to EHM 2007" is not ludicrous at all. It's just a fact at this point. Whatever context you may want to put these comparisons in, at the end of the day you have one game that works and is stable and one game that has tons of potential, three very intriguing game modes and doesn't work at all.
This whole discussion that's been going on for a couple of weeks now may very well be totally moot in two months. We all hope so. But FHM still has a loooooong way to go.

[Zyllyx]

Originally Posted by pens66

This whole discussion that's been going on for a couple of weeks now may very well be totally moot in two months. We all hope so. But FHM still has a loooooong way to go.

I don't think anyone can argue with that. I guess I am hoping people will see that the FHM team is moving down the right road instead of giving up on the thing only a week into its 1.0 launch.

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by pens66

Whatever context you may want to put these comparisons in, at the end of the day you have one game that works and is stable.

After three version not one... the first release and even the second were far from stable and bug free (even the last one had bug).

[Zorro]

Why are we doing this guys? What does it matter? It is like pissing in the wind, It only ends up ugly. ................................................ Z

[Zyllyx]

Originally Posted by Zorro

Why are we doing this guys? What does it matter? It is like pissing in the wind, It only ends up ugly. ................................................ Z

Because the patch isn't out yet. Once the patch is out we'll all miraculously have something better to do.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by zyllyx

because the patch isn't out yet. Once the patch is out we'll all miraculously have something better to do.

roflmao........................................... ...Z

[dave1927p]

I feel a little ashamed but I've been refreshing the forum for the past two hours wishing to see the new Stickied Update thread

[Aliean]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

I feel a little ashamed but I've been refreshing the forum for the past two hours wishing to see the new Stickied Update thread

dont be i have done the same haha