Release Time on September 3

[fireholder]

Originally Posted by Mickeyb37

Did I say I didn't expect there to be custom generated players for future seasons, I seem to remember EHM managed that without many issues. Just didn't see the need for custom leagues in the first version.

If you think EHM managed that without issues, you really didn't play EHM very much.

[Orioles1966]

Originally Posted by Mickeyb37

Did I say I didn't expect there to be custom generated players for future seasons, I seem to remember EHM managed that without many issues. Just didn't see the need for custom leagues in the first version.

Custom players equals custom league(s). At least that's how I look at it. Once one fictional player enters the league it becomes custom.

Never played EHM.

[fireholder]

And people seem to be forgetting that the precious EHM (of which I was and am, honestly, still a fan) never amounted to that great of a game.

The 2004 and 2005 versions had their very fair share of flaws, and the 2007 version was released entirely unplayable due to the player decline bug. It took four patches (version 1.14) for us to even be able to remotely play EHM07.

Yeah, there's issues. The biggest ones will/should be fixed for today's release. More issues will happen. The FHM Crew will be on top of them.

Sports Interactive is many times the size of OOTP Developments. And EHM was still **** at launch. Give these guys a little more credit and a little less prepubescent whining. :/ How would anyone feel if community naysaying, instead of support, actually led the devs to throw in the towel?

[Mickeyb37]

Again misquoted did I say there were no issues with EHM and generated players. 'EHM managed that without many issues' doesnt mean there werent any. Also I played it from freeware to EHM 2007. And I remember the amount of patches that were involved. I also remember using the Pregame editor and saved game editor to try and fix some of the decline issues. The editors created by guys like ArchibaldUK and other users were invaluable.

[geckon]

Originally Posted by fireholder

Holy crap... you people.

We, a league with more than 400 players, had planned on using FHM as our platform. It was an opportunity to support developers and also use a game that I was already confident in.

Legitimately custom leagues/game world and the ability to have multiple GMs were the only real needs we had. This was a year ago when the game was planned to come out last winter. We got on board as actual testers around then, and the things we needed have still yet to happen.

And I would still, absolutely, not complain.

Some people are ridiculously self-centered. Peripheral features (like facegen, neutral sites, etc) should be secondary to gameplay/AI, accuracy/rules, and customization/tweaking.

Many of you come from the baseball sim world. I come from the hockey sim world. I played Freeware EHM for hours a day back at the turn of the century. The very idea of a "historical game" was a project, for 15 years (EA sports or EHM) that the community put together. It has never been done by a developer, and the hockey community has never really needed it to be. Personally I think that's a feature that could have waited (and the community could have supplied in the meantime, as it always has), but I think people are really taking for granted that it's there at all.

There's an additional spot for the "official" testers to discuss and bring things up. There are obscure rules and policies for every single league on this planet and the FHM Crew is working to make them all entirely accurate -- whereas in the past, from EHM to EA to every single fly-by-night hockey simulator, it has been "get it close." There are a ton of bugs and accuracy issues that are brought up and no one is ignoring them.

Every version is better than the last.

As a hockey gamer, I'm very used to "good enough." Being a part of something and seeing the FHM Crew strive for actual accuracy is awesome and admirable. I think it's more than we really need early on, but more importantly, with some of these responses, I think it's more than we even deserve.

Instead of going for quick fixes these guys are trying to make the AI act like a real person/team/entity does within their corresponding league in the real world. And there's a lot of leagues playable to take into account.

I'll end with the fact that management simulations haven't traditionally done very well in North America. I don't know what the Euro/World sales for FHM are compared to NA right now, but people look to console sports gaming waaaaaay before management sims. FHM could be an epic game right "out of the box" in 1 hour if they only focused only/primarily on the NHL, ignored historical stuff, and allowed way less flexibility. That's the recipe almost every other developer has always used. It really seems like that's what a good chunk of the vocal lot of you would have wanted.

But that would have severely minimized FHM's target market and isolated a lot of foreign support. The framework for an awesome game is here. Even after release it will need to be built on. Even with early flaws, the appeal is to the many instead of the few, and I think that's going to be the thing that allows FHM to prosper long-term.

Thanks Rand for a sane view of the situation.

Originally Posted by Nino33

I don't think the developers ever "promised" real-time or neutral site games

I'm not sure about it either.

Originally Posted by Mickeyb37

As a long term player of EHM I wasnt interested in face gen or historical or custom modes or neutral venues. All I wanted was a game where I could conduct GM type business such as make trades, sign FA's, resign my players and play some hockey games without major crashes and bugs. Sounds like I was looking for a Hockey Management game like the one I paid my money to beta test and that isnt what is being delivered.

Yes the forum users have made some pretty big demands but that is down to the developers to pick what is important and for me that was the core of a hockey management game. Things like custom or historical mode should have been left to future versions.

Yep, that's what you prefer. And there are tons of users who prefer different things. It's up to the dev team to pick the right things (you're right in this) to ensure the game's success and sales big enough to allow further development leading to the future versions. I have complete faith in the team that they picked up exactly those things that will ensure this.

I have no idea about the sales in NA or Europe but I guess that with more leagues and with e.g. custom mode, the game will attract more people.

Please keep in your minds that this game has enormous potential and what really matters is how the game will look like in next few years. It would be good to have absolutely flawless game supporting NHL only but if it should end in this state I wouldn't be happy.

And believe me that the developers are working hard to eliminate as many bugs as possible.

Originally Posted by Mickeyb37

Did I say I didn't expect there to be custom generated players for future seasons, I seem to remember EHM managed that without many issues. Just didn't see the need for custom leagues in the first version.

Well... EHM didn't particularly amazed me with their player regeneration system actually.

[RBLwebguy]

Regardless of what happens today, I am sure not everyone will be happy. In terms of what was built, well coulda, woulda, shoulda.

I know the developers have been working tirelessly over the past few weeks to ensure the most complete product will be ready and am quite confident that in a few short weeks or months most of you will appreciate the product.

As someone said recently, the game has made huge strides between betas and I look forward to this game being the best on the Market. Will it be at the level OOTP14 is? No and that's a given, but in time and after more versions it can/will be.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by fireholder

Some people are ridiculously self-centered. Peripheral features (like facegen, neutral sites, etc) should be secondary to gameplay/AI, accuracy/rules, and customization/tweaking.

I'm sorry but it is not the job of the customer to use discretion on what requests of theirs takes priority over others. This is the job of the dev and they should be adding requests on a list and setting priority themselves. Just because someone requests a feature now doesn't mean he wants it in this version. Maybe they just want it added to the list. So calling people self centred for making requests is not the right thing to do. You cannot place blame on customers and users.

For example, if i were to request a far out thing such as an Agent mode or Owner Mode, i wouldn't expect it in this version but if that gets added to a list and get's the dev thinking alittle bit, what's the harm of making the request. Again you are quite off base placing blame on the customers, even if some appear to be impatient.

[geckon]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

I'm sorry but it is not the job of the customer to use discretion on what requests of theirs takes priority over others. This is the job of the dev and they should be adding requests on a list and setting priority themselves. Just because someone requests a feature now doesn't mean he wants it in this version. Maybe they just want it added to the list. So calling people self centred for making requests is not the right thing to do. You cannot place blame on customers and users.

For example, if i were to request a far out thing such as an Agent mode or Owner Mode, i wouldn't expect it in this version but if that gets added to a list and get's the dev thinking alittle bit, what's the harm of making the request. Again you are quite off base placing blame on the customers, even if some appear to be impatient.

I'm sure that fireholder didn't mean that people shouldn't ask for features. The "Hey, you didn't add what I want and this game is total crap because of that" attitude is more of a problem here.

[fireholder]

Originally Posted by Mickeyb37

Again misquoted did I say there were no issues with EHM and generated players. 'EHM managed that without many issues' doesnt mean there werent any. Also I played it from freeware to EHM 2007. And I remember the amount of patches that were involved. I also remember using the Pregame editor and saved game editor to try and fix some of the decline issues. The editors created by guys like ArchibaldUK and other users were invaluable.

You can cling to the technicality of a misquote, but I doubt you'd have brought EHM up at all if you weren't using it as a comparison to a game that you'd probably be insinuating as superior in some way.

I could be wrong, but whatever. You can't argue for or against intent with someone you don't know.

Regardless, to go on a tangent, EHM's player regeneration had many issues, so to say there "weren't many" was still egregious. Player regen and an incredibly flawed AI with bad gameplay ruined EHM. Had it continued development, it may have one day been a good/great game.

• Way to easy to find "regens," especially for foreign players.
• Some regens made completely unrealistic/screwed up... Lidstrom was regened with a 1 positioning once.
• Randomly generated players outside of traditional countries, even if excellent, would always retire. Once you're 10+ years in and watch the development of every incoming player in the game (which is what I did) you will find Israeli, South African, and even Korean players with a PA of 170+, and they never wind up on a team and retire by the time they're 16.
• Due to cloudy and downright bad formulas and algorithms, player attributes weren't at all indicative of how skilled a player was. You could easily have a star-power player with all 17s in offensive categories and have him fail to perform despite good scouting reports and mental attributes. A save game glance reveals his CA to be like 115. That is downright deceptive and a huge detriment to the entire game.
• Wonky gameplay made it so that heavier players were substantially better, regardless of their attributes. 170 pounds and 16 strength was a significantly weaker player than 250 pounds and 10 strength.
• You could draft decent regenned players and as long as you only drafted guys near or over 210 pounds, you were sure to dominate.

[silvam14]

Things will be much more clear in about 15 minutes

[Stinson]

Well, this thread is certainly taking a turn...

So who's excited for release? We're only about 10 minutes away, now, from the first significant hockey management sim in six years. I'm definitely excited. OOTP Developments making a hockey game? Yes, please.

[PromisedPain]

Originally Posted by fireholder

You can cling to the technicality of a misquote, but I doubt you'd have brought EHM up at all if you weren't using it as a comparison to a game that you'd probably be insinuating as superior in some way.

I could be wrong, but whatever. You can't argue for or against intent with someone you don't know.

Regardless, to go on a tangent, EHM's player regeneration had many issues, so to say there "weren't many" was still egregious. Player regen and an incredibly flawed AI with bad gameplay ruined EHM. Had it continued development, it may have one day been a good/great game.

• Way to easy to find "regens," especially for foreign players.
• Some regens made completely unrealistic/screwed up... Lidstrom was regened with a 1 positioning once.
• Randomly generated players outside of traditional countries, even if excellent, would always retire. Once you're 10+ years in and watch the development of every incoming player in the game (which is what I did) you will find Israeli, South African, and even Korean players with a PA of 170+, and they never wind up on a team and retire by the time they're 16.
• Due to cloudy and downright bad formulas and algorithms, player attributes weren't at all indicative of how skilled a player was. You could easily have a star-power player with all 17s in offensive categories and have him fail to perform despite good scouting reports and mental attributes. A save game glance reveals his CA to be like 115. That is downright deceptive and a huge detriment to the entire game.
• Wonky gameplay made it so that heavier players were substantially better, regardless of their attributes. 170 pounds and 16 strength was a significantly weaker player than 250 pounds and 10 strength.
• You could draft decent regenned players and as long as you only drafted guys near or over 210 pounds, you were sure to dominate.

I never used any kind of editor to check the PA of a player (basically cheating) But this thing about weight is also new to me, I never knew such a thing existed after all these years.

Regens certainly were too easy to find, which is why I prefer the system FHM has, it's a lot better.

[fireholder]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

I'm sorry but it is not the job of the customer to use discretion on what requests of theirs takes priority over others. This is the job of the dev and they should be adding requests on a list and setting priority themselves. Just because someone requests a feature now doesn't mean he wants it in this version. Maybe they just want it added to the list. So calling people self centred for making requests is not the right thing to do. You cannot place blame on customers and users.

For example, if i were to request a far out thing such as an Agent mode or Owner Mode, i wouldn't expect it in this version but if that gets added to a list and get's the dev thinking alittle bit, what's the harm of making the request. Again you are quite off base placing blame on the customers, even if some appear to be impatient.

I haven't called anyone self-centered for making a request. What's self-centered is anyone who gets angry, rude, or whiny over the fact that their secondary request hasn't been implemented.

I never insinuated that people have to use any discretion on what requests take priority, and if I did it was very inadvertent. I'd also like it pointed out so I could fix the wrong wording.

Requesting is one thing, complaining is another. People can request away -- once every (realistic) request is able to be implemented, the game will only be better for all of us. I do not, however, think that people should complain away, belittle the devs, or accuse the devs of having an agenda, or use words like "deplorable." That's really not productive and really isn't the way for us to motivate indie developers to continue to produce a product that we really, really want.

And your example is fine? I'd never consider hampering a user who makes an interesting request. Requests of this more inquisitive nature interest and excite me, and now I'm trying to imagine those modes myself.

[BTerran]

Originally Posted by geckon

I'm sure that fireholder didn't mean that people shouldn't ask for features. The "Hey, you didn't add what I want and this game is total crap because of that" attitude is more of a problem here.

It seems like in this topic at least, the attitude is more the opposite, with people generally feeling that too many features were added at the possible expense of stability.

I pre-ordered the game when the option was first available, but largely haven't participated in the beta process, so I'm in the dark as to how the game plays at this point. If this topic is taken at face value, it certainly sounds like we can expect major Day 1 bugs, but at the same time, we don't know that for a fact just yet.

Speculation is fine of course, but I think the postmortem discussion might prove to be premature, given that we don't have v1.0 yet. The biggest bugs from previous versions might still be addressed in v1.0 or shortly thereafter. The latter wouldn't be ideal, but they also wouldn't be the first game to have to deal with issues post-release and while that's never popular, delaying a game is also usually met with hostility.

So we'll have to see what happens, but I'm at least still cautiously optimistic. Worst case scenario, I waited this long and I might have to wait a little longer for everything to be stable.

[Hockey13Playa]

Sooooo uh 4 minutes!

[geckon]

Originally Posted by Stinson

Well, this thread is certainly taking a turn...

So who's excited for release? We're only about 10 minutes away, now, from the first significant hockey management sim in six years. I'm definitely excited. OOTP Developments making a hockey game? Yes, please.

Who's not?

[fireholder]

Originally Posted by PromisedPain

I never used any kind of editor to check the PA of a player (basically cheating) But this thing about weight is also new to me, I never knew such a thing existed after all these years.

Regens certainly were too easy to find, which is why I prefer the system FHM has, it's a lot better.

Yeah, weight is a gigantic issue. I run a league with a few hundred active users where everyone, instead of running a team, manages "themselves" or the player they sign up as. So you get a certain amount of points to spend on your player and watch him progress and have a career, and every team is made up of other people doing the same thing.

We've used EHM for 6 seasons, and in this kind of controlled environment you can really see the exploits and flaws of a game. We really had to regulate weight, and then it still got exploited. Someone with 400 points to spend (about an average of 13 for every attribute in EHM) with a weight of 170 would be ridiculously worse than someone with a weight of 230. We made the range smaller (170-230) to try and minimize the effect, but eventually everyone was just making their player 230 pounds for the benefit.

It's one of the reasons Martin St. Louis, despite being amazing in attributes, never really gets over an 8.00 rating for a season. But I put Georges Laraque on my second line and he had 60 points and an 8.50 rating haha

[fireholder]

Originally Posted by BTerran

The latter wouldn't be ideal, but they also wouldn't be the first game to have to deal with issues post-release and while that's never popular, delaying a game is also usually met with hostility.

A thinker!

Not to mention this game was already delayed 9 months. I would assume another delay could very well do more harm than a release and follow-up patch.

[bwburke94]

At least today's going to be a lot better than OOTP14 release date was. Even if the server crashes from all the downloads.

[geckon]

Originally Posted by BTerran

It seems like in this topic at least, the attitude is more the opposite, with people generally feeling that too many features were added at the possible expense of stability.

It's pretty much the same IMHO. Only the attitude is changed to "Hey, you added these nonsenses and didn't focus on my favorite feature enough. The game is crap because of that."

Still I think it should be up to the devs what to implement and what to put aside for now.