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Old 01-02-2013, 06:07 PM   #41
CeeBee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebear View Post
Bryan Trottier Val-Marie SK
Denis and Jean Potvin Ottawa, Ont
Patrick Marleau, Aneroid SK (Don't know if he speaks french?)
Claude Giroux Hearst, Ont
Alex Plante Brandon MB

Well five on 18 is about 27% out of Quebec !

I think it's fair to say that there's enough french name in North America even in USA but it doesn't mean they speak french.
But I think Dave was referring to French last names born out of Quebec tend to have less French type first names... Hence Bryan Trottier, Theoran Fleury, Patrick Marleau. That might also be the least likely thing to be working properly, at least it was in EHM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:07 PM   #42
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By the way, Jeff. I noticed the ethnicities list has English, Irish, Scottish but not Welsh names. Do you need to create a Welsh name list, for the thousands (or maybe not) of Welsh players?
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by CeeBee View Post
But I think Dave was referring to French last names born out of Quebec tend to have less French type first names... Hence Bryan Trottier, Theoran Fleury, Patrick Marleau. That might also be the least likely thing to be working properly, at least it was in EHM.
You're probably right about les French type first names for people born out of QC in the western part of Canada.

I was referring to Marc-André Fleury, I think Theoren Fleury is English speaking with French origin name. Patrick is a common name in French too.

I agree that EHM had some weird name for their regen.

I think french canadian always had an important part in the NHL and I just hope that the "balance" portion of them will remain in FHM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:39 PM   #44
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I think french canadian always had an important part in the NHL and I just hope that the "balance" portion of them will remain in FHM.
Totally agree.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:11 PM   #45
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Me too!
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by geckon View Post
I could remove the Slovak names if I'd use the 2nd option but if you think 1) is better anyway I can do that.
If you can do it with the second option, go ahead, that was my only concern with that one.

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The possibility of Czech player getting Slovak name seems cool to me. Would it be possible (and usable) something like a very very little chance of getting any language's name for a newgen with any nationality?
Technically, it's possible, but in practical terms it would be a bit of a nuisance to do, and would bloat up the world.xml file quite a bit.

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(Btw any possibility to have women hockey? Not that I would need it, it just crossed my mind :-))
Not anytime soon, so no female first names or feminine last names in the names lists.

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OK. Do you have any suggestion what cutoff to use? By common names you mean only the most common ones or any names above the cutoff?
Mainly the most common ones - the idea is to avoid the 'John Smith' problem where we get too many guys with a common first name combined with a common last name. You may also want to reduce the frequency of uncommon names that belong to well-known players - it always looks strange in hockey games to see a bunch of guys named Gretzky.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by archibalduk View Post
The North American names from OOTP would be a good starting point for the English names. I guess it'd be just a case of taking out the non-English names from the list.
There's actually a UK names list for OOTP, much easier to work with that than screening out 75% of the 9000 or so names in the American OOTP list. I'll extract that and get it to Grindline tomorrow. Between that, your spreadsheet, and those frequency lists, that should be enough.

English, Irish, and Scottish should be enough, right? Doesn't seem like there are many Welsh players, or areas in North America where Welsh names are common enough (like, say, Scottish in Nova Scotia or Irish in Massachusetts) to merit a special name list.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:16 AM   #48
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You make a good point about Welsh names outside of Wales. I only mentioned it because there are uniquely Welsh names due to the Welsh language. We could always try to construct a Welsh one later once the prioritty databases are done, time permitting.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:02 AM   #49
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There's actually a UK names list for OOTP, much easier to work with that than screening out 75% of the 9000 or so names in the American OOTP list. I'll extract that and get it to Grindline tomorrow. Between that, your spreadsheet, and those frequency lists, that should be enough.
Ah that's good news. That'll save a great deal of work.

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English, Irish, and Scottish should be enough, right? Doesn't seem like there are many Welsh players, or areas in North America where Welsh names are common enough (like, say, Scottish in Nova Scotia or Irish in Massachusetts) to merit a special name list.
I agree. The Welsh make up only 5% of British players in the top 38 UK teams. Wales and England share many of the same names. It is perfectly feasible for an English national to have a Welsh name as lots of people moved from England to Wales and vice versa. E.g. where I'm from (Liverpool), there are a lot of people with a Welsh parent or grandparent. All of those stats above incorporate English and Welsh names and so if we keep them all in one list, I think it'll be fine.

I'm more concerned about ensuring that the Irish and Scottish lists are sufficiently large enough. We don't want to end up with a database full of stereotypes! Here are a couple more resources that may be helpful:

SCOTLAND
List of Scottish footballers: List of Scotland international footballers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IRELAND
Top 6000+ Northern Irish first names 1997-2011 (Table 6 shows them by percentage share - if you sort them by percentage, you'll get 451 names - I'd ignore those that are 0% or less because some of those seem to be Chinese/Eastern European): http://www.nisra.gov.uk/archive/demo..._List_9711.xls
A-Z of Irish first names (I would use the English equivalent where available as some of them are antiquated/traditional): Irish Boy Names - Irish baby boys names, meanings and origins
Northern Irish surnames (down the right hand side of the page there are common surnames for each county): Irish Clans and Surnames


Gridline - Let me know if you want a hand, or for a second pair of eyes to look through things once completed, etc.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:09 AM   #50
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If you can do it with the second option, go ahead, that was my only concern with that one.
I will probably have a look on both of them again and then decide.


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Technically, it's possible, but in practical terms it would be a bit of a nuisance to do, and would bloat up the world.xml file quite a bit.
From my point of view it would be more systematical way to keep such rare names but of course I don't see under the hood so you have to solve this.


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Not anytime soon, so no female first names or feminine last names in the names lists.
Of course, I suppose it would need completely new files anyway.


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Mainly the most common ones - the idea is to avoid the 'John Smith' problem where we get too many guys with a common first name combined with a common last name. You may also want to reduce the frequency of uncommon names that belong to well-known players - it always looks strange in hockey games to see a bunch of guys named Gretzky.
OK, I'll try to do my best.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:53 AM   #51
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I've finished letters A-D for Russian last names and completed the first names.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:57 AM   #52
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I'm more concerned about ensuring that the Irish and Scottish lists are sufficiently large enough. We don't want to end up with a database full of stereotypes!

Gridline - Let me know if you want a hand, or for a second pair of eyes to look through things once completed, etc.
How about we split up the load and then check each other's as a second pair of eyes afterwards?

If I take English and you do the Scots and Irish and then you can look at mine after I have finished and vice versa.

I'm happy to do as little or as much as is needed in order just to help get the game up and running in whatever small way I can.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #53
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How about we split up the load and then check each other's as a second pair of eyes afterwards?

If I take English and you do the Scots and Irish and then you can look at mine after I have finished and vice versa.

I'm happy to do as little or as much as is needed in order just to help get the game up and running in whatever small way I can.
Yeah that sounds good. I'll get started later this month once I've got some other bits complete.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:04 AM   #54
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Here's the "UK" name lists from OOTP if you two want to use them. The surnames don't look too bad, but I don't know about the first names - they're all set to a frequency of 1, for one thing, and some of them don't seem too British. "Denzel"?
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File Type: zip 6 english.zip (13.9 KB, 38 views)
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:53 AM   #55
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Here's the "UK" name lists from OOTP if you two want to use them. The surnames don't look too bad, but I don't know about the first names - they're all set to a frequency of 1, for one thing, and some of them don't seem too British. "Denzel"?
The surnames look good to me. There's a wide range there. I think all that needs doing is to marginally increase the frequency count of some of the surnames (there's a list of the most common ones here). I don't think it's really necessary to merge in the surnames from my previous spreadsheet (btw I've attached an updated version which incorporates surnames from when I researched the NIHL-2 and GB Junior League for EHM this summer in case it is of any use to Grindline).

The first names don't look so good. A fair few of the names are quite antiquated now. I would personally start again and just use the 2011 England & Wales census data - that has all of the frequency counts done for us.
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File Type: xls British & Irish Players - Updated 04-Jan-13.xls (112.5 KB, 57 views)
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:41 AM   #56
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If you can do it with the second option, go ahead, that was my only concern with that one.
After more thorough look on the databases I decided that I'll probably go with the 2nd option. It will be easier (no need of removing female names) and correct enough, I think. As for surnames I will decide later since the 2nd database contains only first names.

I plan to (and have started with):
- remove all Slovak names and other foreign names (with following exceptions)
- keep the foreign names which are likely to be used by Czech parents for their son (e.g. Nikolas, Sebastian, Tobias etc.) - but I will probably remove names which are used in Czech Republic but used by other ethnicities "only"/mainly*
- keep some of the Polish names since it is well possible that Czech uses such name - more probably if he comes from border region
- remove Vietnamese names**

* I am afraid it will be subjective decision whether let a foreign name in the file or remove it. If it would be up to me I would remove Jeremy but keep Nicolas etc. I suppose it's not a big deal though because there will be enough rare names anyway. I don't know what to do with some Russian names - I would delete them according to the second "rule" but there are players like Michail and Dmitrij Jaškins in Czech Republic (sons of retired Russian defenseman Alexej Jaškin who came to Czech Republic and has both citizenships). What do you think?

** In Czech Republic there is quite big Vietnamese community/minority. I don't know any Vietnamese hockey player but I guess there will be such in the future. Is this something worthy to be discussed and solved e.g. similar way to Slovak names for Czech players?
Letting Vietnamese names in the database is not a good solution because then players like Dong Novotný would be generated which is very unlikely IRL.
Similar problems could appear with Romani, Hungarian, Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian and Serbian minorities as those are probably the most significant minorities here.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:58 PM   #57
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My two cents, if anyone wants them:

What would make sense to me would be to keep surnames of ethnies that, in a given country, usually name their children with "local" names as a natural part of the national nameset and make all others very rare or inexistant. Some examples:

- Germanic names in Czech Republic are usually associated with Czech first names (e.g. TomᚠFleischmann, Robert Lang, Jaromír Jágr ("czechified" version of Jäger), etc.)
- Hungarian names in Slovakia (e.g. Peter Budaj ("slovakified" form of Buday), Andrej Meszároš (Mészáros), Vladimir Országh, Ladislav Nagy, etc.)

For ethnies that usually name their children according to their own set of names, it would probably be best to create namesets for them and assign them very low percentages for players created. A Vietnamese set may seem a lot of effort for names that may or may never be used in game for, say, Czech Republic, but this set can then also be used in Canada, USA and other places where there's been immigration; it can also, obviously, be used in Vietnam if someone decides to expand the hockey world to that nation in a fantasy game (it'll likely happen in real life within a decade, anyway).

Such minorities sets can add a distinctive flavour to the game. Imagine if once in a while, a player from northern Canada had an Inuit name (like Jordin Tootoo) or if players from some areas in Russia often had Tatar names (like Nail Yakupov), for instance.

Player names in simulation games have always been a sensitive issue to me as poor renditions kill all the fun once the regens/newgens start spawning. EHM, for instance, was pretty bad at this.

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:00 PM   #58
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Hey YZG! Didn't you compile a lot of name data for Dabo's project? I was wondering whether any of it would be useful for FHM - if you're happy to share it.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:52 PM   #59
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Yeah, I had quite a lot of namesets built for that project, many with 1000+ surnames. A large part of it is "stuck" on the hard drive of my old laptop which died a year ago. It still exists, it would just need to be extracted to an external drive. I'm not sure how to do that. I have some further work on this laptop that could be shared, if useful; I always love to compile such lists, so I can definitely build new ones as well.

Can you let me know which sets are ready for the project at the time being and which are needed? I can surely lend a hand with these and contribute a few "flavour" ones.

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Old 01-04-2013, 02:21 PM   #60
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What would make sense to me would be to keep surnames of ethnies that, in a given country, usually name their children with "local" names as a natural part of the national nameset and make all others very rare or inexistant. Some examples:

- Germanic names in Czech Republic are usually associated with Czech first names (e.g. TomᚠFleischmann, Robert Lang, Jaromír Jágr ("czechified" version of Jäger), etc.)
- Hungarian names in Slovakia (e.g. Peter Budaj ("slovakified" form of Buday), Andrej Meszároš (Mészáros), Vladimir Országh, Ladislav Nagy, etc.)
I agree and plan to keep German(ic) surnames in Czech file because quite a lot of people here has surname originating in German (including me ).

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Originally Posted by YZG View Post
For ethnies that usually name their children according to their own set of names, it would probably be best to create namesets for them and assign them very low percentages for players created. A Vietnamese set may seem a lot of effort for names that may or may never be used in game for, say, Czech Republic, but this set can then also be used in Canada, USA and other places where there's been immigration; it can also, obviously, be used in Vietnam if someone decides to expand the hockey world to that nation in a fantasy game (it'll likely happen in real life within a decade, anyway).

Such minorities sets can add a distinctive flavour to the game. Imagine if once in a while, a player from northern Canada had an Inuit name (like Jordin Tootoo) or if players from some areas in Russia often had Tatar names (like Nail Yakupov), for instance.
That would be really cool but I am not sure if it wouldn't also be difficult to ensure that some nationalities can generate a player with Vietnamese/Inuit/Tatar/etc name. JeffR already stated that Czech player has certain chance to get Slovak name and I don't know how far they go in that but he also said something about bloating the world config file (when I suggested something similar).
Also I don't feel I'd be able to create let's say Vietnamese or Romani name file of high quality.

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Yeah, I had quite a lot of namesets built for that project, many with 1000+ surnames. A large part of it is "stuck" on the hard drive of my old laptop which died a year ago. It still exists, it would just need to be extracted to an external drive. I'm not sure how to do that. I have some further work on this laptop that could be shared, if useful; I always love to compile such lists, so I can definitely build new ones as well.

Can you let me know which sets are ready for the project at the time being and which are needed? I can surely lend a hand with these and contribute a few "flavour" ones.

- YZG
If you are interested to help and want to know what has been done and what hasn't you can look at the file attached to this JeffR's post:
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And as long as I'm asking for help, I might as well post this: here's the (provisional) ethnicities.txt file for the game. The ones marked with asterisks are already done (and a few others will probably be lifted entirely from OOTP, when their names are good enough for our purposes, e.g. Latin American and Japanese names), but the others need work. If anyone wants to help with any of these, speak up. Some of them will need to be built from the ground up, but for most I can provide you with beginning files built from the player database.

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