Turn Storylines off???

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Andreas Raht

That's what you're doing wrong, Wolf. What you suggest is like suggesting to quit playing OOTP when somebody found a bug.

Toggling a feature or an option off is a far different thing from quitting a game.

Originally Posted by Andreas Raht

And that's the next part of your "method". As soon as people ask you to stop trolling, you get pseudo-serious, behave demonstratively well and as if you're the most constructive forum user of all.

1. I don't troll.

2. I am not "pseudo-serious." I am quite serious.

3. I have asked legitimate questions about storylines that went unanswered. I made constructive suggestions that you have not responded to. I am doing my best to make storylines work. I do my best to make other parts of the game work. I do my best to contribute to the knowledge base on the board. I help new users. I make good, logical suggestions in the suggestions forum. I have over fifteen hundred thanks. I do not deserve to be rebuked like this.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Having said both points, the list of suggestions he posted a couple of pages back was actually pretty good. Those would be (some) good guidelines in making storylines better.

Yes, they would be. Thank you for noticing.

[David Watts]

I'm still waiting to be buked.

[D-BacksJosh]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Toggling a feature or an option off is a far different thing from quitting a game.



1. I don't troll.

2. I am not "pseudo-serious." I am quite serious.

3. I have asked legitimate questions about storylines that went unanswered. I made constructive suggestions that you have not responded to. I am doing my best to make storylines work. I do my best to make other parts of the game work. I do my best to contribute to the knowledge base on the board. I help new users. I make good, logical suggestions in the suggestions forum. I have over fifteen hundred thanks. I do not deserve to be rebuked like this.

I have been keeping up with the board for a while and would have to agree. I do not consider The Wolf a troll. Some of his posts have been quite helpful to me personally, and I don't see his argumentativeness any greater then what is par for this forum.

There is someone else on here that more aptly fits the description of 'troll' however, and that person does not seem to get the level of opposition that The Wolf does. Not sure why that is, maybe most people have that particular person blocked already, or maybe it's The Wolf's magnetic personality.

[JohnHoward]

Originally Posted by Andreas Raht

That's what you're doing wrong, Wolf. What you suggest is like suggesting to quit playing OOTP when somebody found a bug.

And that's the next part of your "method". As soon as people ask you to stop trolling, you get pseudo-serious, behave demonstratively well and as if you're the most constructive forum user of all.

Yes, that is a common MO. Now slam the other guy who does this all the time.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

I have been keeping up with the board for a while and would have to agree. I do not consider The Wolf a troll. Some of his posts have been quite helpful to me personally, and I don't see his argumentativeness any greater then what is par for this forum.

There is someone else on here that more aptly fits the description of 'troll' however, and that person does not seem to get the level of opposition that The Wolf does. Not sure why that is, maybe most people have that particular person blocked already, or maybe it's The Wolf's magnetic personality.

Who is this other guy? Watch it be me

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

1. What is the official purpose for storylines?

2. Why have there been so many severely punitive outcomes from storyline stories (loss of market size, fan interest, etc.)?

3. Why are there so very few positive outcomes to storylines?

4. Did the OOTP design staff believe that there was insufficient randomness in the game before adding storylines?

No, I'm not trolling. You wanted constructive criticism, I gave it, and now I'm asking serious questions.

I'm not Andreas but I've been here a long time and I was one of the people pushing for stuff like this for many versions. I still think this is a killer feature in its infancy. So here's what I've read:

1. Storylines are there to help add immersion and to handle events that are linked together - something OOTP couldn't do well before the feature.

2 and 3. Remember, storylines are written by the beta team and it might be as simple as the negative storylines were easier to create and think of than positive versions. Before 14 came out, there was a thread with a request for storyline ideas.

4. I thought it was a lacking feature in OOTP. More importantly for me, as someone who enjoys offbeat leagues, it provides a framework to affect the game in ways that Markus and Andreas probably didn't even realize. However, I think it's a potentially valuable feature for users who enjoy a little extra narrative with their game.

I think the main problem with storylines is that it is still so difficult to mod them. I was hoping to see a bunch of specialized storyline "packs" be created but it's just so time-consuming to create them right now. With the "packs" you could get the storyline experience you want - in your case perfectly balanced between positive and negative results and 100% realistically accurate. We could also have packs with the gritty realism of deaths and some without that kind of stuff for the people who don't want it. We could do packs specifically for random debut where any event could trigger at any time. We could do hobbit packs or just about anything else you could possibly think of.

What would help modders like me is more thorough documentation of what we can do with storylines and potentially a tool to help write them. I'm happy to get involved with the beta of OOTP 15 solely for that feature if it would help.

EDIT: I was really interested in ootpfox's storyline tool since it was pretty much what I wanted but it required a web server which I didn't have.

[D-BacksJosh]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Who is this other guy? Watch it be me

No, not in the least. Search through all of the posts in the past 24 hours and I am sure that you will come to the logical conclusion of who that person is.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

I have been keeping up with the board for a while and would have to agree. I do not consider The Wolf a troll. Some of his posts have been quite helpful to me personally, and I don't see his argumentativeness any greater then what is par for this forum.

There is someone else on here that more aptly fits the description of 'troll' however, and that person does not seem to get the level of opposition that The Wolf does. Not sure why that is, maybe most people have that particular person blocked already, or maybe it's The Wolf's magnetic personality.

I would have to agree that Wolf is not a troll in the sense of wanting to sow discord for the mere sake of discord

he seems to have a positive agenda, however, his methods for furthering that agenda have trollish tendencies

he preaches tolerance at the same time that he is being intolerant

and that 'other' more trollish troll is trolling on the game while Wolf manages to attack people (and then claim no attack was intended - why is every one picking on me?)

this has happened so often and with so many different people that only an O.J. Simpson juror could think Wolf innocent

[hefalumps]

I was looking through the default_storylines.xml file and found it very interesting - there are lots of stories with positive modifiers for morale, fan loyalty, fan interest, player popularity, etc. So nice stories like charity donations, players opening up restaurants, etc. - they seem minimal and may go unnoticed because the reward isn't easily visible. But when a player retires to donate a kidney to his brother, that's a very visible negative (the player retiring, not saving his brother's life). Problem is, I'm not sure there's an equivalent "positive" story with that same kind of impact. The best I could come up with is this storyline:

Cal Ripken Clones Himself, Signs with O's

3/15/96 - BALTIMORE - In a stunning medical breakthrough, Cal Ripken successfully cloned himself today and inked a three-year deal to play shortstop for the Orioles. The original Cal Ripken will shift to third base, giving the O's a devastating left side of their infield.

Ripken #2 will wear number 82 on his jersey.

I know - it's silly right? But my point is, some negative impacts don't have a corresponding positive impact. I don't think it's possible.

Do you know what would help? All of the default storylines are in one XML file. Maybe instead of putting everything in one XML file, you could put "categories" of stories into their own XML files. That way you could put all the storylines that would cause a player to retire (leaving for football, donating a kidney, joining the army) into one file, and if the user didn't want those kinds of stories in their game, they would just delete or move that file so it wasn't imported during league creation.

EDIT: Kingcharlesxii posted a similar sentiment as I was writing this post. Giving users more control over the storylines - however that could be done - would be the easiest way to make everyone happy.

Oh, and quick question Andreas - does importing a new storylines.xml file from the "Database Info & Tools" screen completely replace all existing storylines in the league? So, for example, if I went through that file, removed all the "retiring" storylines, and re-imported it into my league, would all of the "retiring" storylines go away?

Thanks...

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Who is this other guy? Watch it be me

Not even close.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I would have to agree that Wolf is not a troll in the sense of wanting to sow discord for the mere sake of discord

he seems to have a positive agenda, however, his methods for furthering that agenda have trollish tendencies

he preaches tolerance at the same time that he is being intolerant

and that 'other' more trollish troll is trolling on the game while Wolf manages to attack people (and then claim no attack was intended - why is every one picking on me?)

this has happened so often and with so many different people that only an O.J. Simpson juror could think Wolf innocent

Wrong again. You should go back and look and see who stops discussing the issue first and makes the first attack.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Wrong again. You should go back and look and see who stops discussing the issue first and makes the first attack.

That would be a huge research project beyond the capabilities of my limited staff as there would be too many threads to evaluate

if A conflicts with B and then A conflicts with C and then A conflicts with D and then A conflicts with E, A is likely the source of the conflict

[Fyrestorm3]

I hate you all.



But to stay on topic: Wolf, I think most of the problem comes from the bluntness with which you make your points known. Maybe instead of telling people to TURN STORYLINES OFF!, you could simply remind them that they have the ability to do so. I'm a writer; proper wording makes all the difference.

I also agree with Questdog, however, in that you sometimes come off as a troll or a negative influence. But I don't believe that it's deliberate.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Andreas Raht

As you probably have seen, "The Wolf" demands in his signature that you should turn the storyline system off. I would like to discuss that in an extra thread.

. . .

It is NOT okay IMHO to tell everybody that they have to switch it off. And it's not okay to hijack each storyline related thread with "turn it off! turn it off!" posts.

I am not The Wolf's attorney, publicist, marketer, or whatever. He has not paid me a retainer, and I have felt the back of his hand (the sting of his canines? his badness of lupine breath?) on occasion.

Yet, I don't think he means it all that negatively when he advocates against something. He likes to state his opinion forcefully. What happens then is some folks who are preconditioned by past events get into it with him and then he overreacts in defending himself. Then his detractors overreact, and so on.

So, I would cut him a break, even if he does grate on your nerves a bit with his posts. I have also seen The Wolf make some significant contributions to these forums and the development of this game.

And Andreas, I am surprised that you of all people would single out a forum member as you did in your original post. I've seen people warned for doing such things.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

I was looking through the default_storylines.xml file and found it very interesting - there are lots of stories with positive modifiers for morale, fan loyalty, fan interest, player popularity, etc. So nice stories like charity donations, players opening up restaurants, etc. - they seem minimal and may go unnoticed because the reward isn't easily visible. But when a player retires to donate a kidney to his brother, that's a very visible negative (the player retiring, not saving his brother's life). Problem is, I'm not sure there's an equivalent "positive" story with that same kind of impact. The best I could come up with is this storyline:

Cal Ripken Clones Himself, Signs with O's

3/15/96 - BALTIMORE - In a stunning medical breakthrough, Cal Ripken successfully cloned himself today and inked a three-year deal to play shortstop for the Orioles. The original Cal Ripken will shift to third base, giving the O's a devastating left side of their infield.

Ripken #2 will wear number 82 on his jersey.

I know - it's silly right? But my point is, some negative impacts don't have a corresponding positive impact. I don't think it's possible.

Do you know what would help? All of the default storylines are in one XML file. Maybe instead of putting everything in one XML file, you could put "categories" of stories into their own XML files. That way you could put all the storylines that would cause a player to retire (leaving for football, donating a kidney, joining the army) into one file, and if the user didn't want those kinds of stories in their game, they would just delete or move that file so it wasn't imported during league creation.

EDIT: Kingcharlesxii posted a similar sentiment as I was writing this post. Giving users more control over the storylines - however that could be done - would be the easiest way to make everyone happy.

Oh, and quick question Andreas - does importing a new storylines.xml file from the "Database Info & Tools" screen completely replace all existing storylines in the league? So, for example, if I went through that file, removed all the "retiring" storylines, and re-imported it into my league, would all of the "retiring" storylines go away?

Thanks...

Lol wth?

I'll say if it wasn't for Wolf's post about turning SL's off then I wouldn't have never examined the feature closely and noticed how crazy some narratives are.

Cal Ripken cloning himself would totally ruin my league being thats its on by default with little info about the feature in the manual.

[ifah]

/r/circlejerk

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Lol wth?

I'll say if it wasn't for Wolf's post about turning SL's off then I wouldn't have never examined the feature closely and noticed how crazy some narratives are.

Cal Ripken cloning himself would totally ruin my league being thats its on by default with little info about the feature in the manual.

That was a joke one hefalumps wrote. It's not in the game.

[coljesep]

As somebody who caused a stir re: 1 specific storyline I thought I'd chime in on Andreas' post.

I think the storylines are 99.9% great, and the .01 percent was taken care of. I buy this game to have fun - the storylines add to the game, I am not sure why anybody is so down on them to be honest.

The main person here being Wolf mentioned that heplays Sport Management games as a test of skill - first, so do I - that is why I never, ever play solo I play in online leagues only - because to me, that is the true test of skill.

But, what shows your skill more than handling adversity? Handling what happens when/if you lose a player due to a storyline or get handed a curve ball by the game? To me - this makes the game more challenging, and tests owners/solo players even more.

Sure, the stories could be better and maybe with time we'll get there. But when I see one of my 28 owners lose a player for months due to some random ski accident, I do not think "wow these stories stink."

I think "wow I wonder how they will deal with this?" And the answer is determined by their SKILL in managing their roster.

[soxfan34]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Fail. Without storylines OOTP still gives us off field events. Ever had a player bitten by a coyote? Or injured off the field in other ways? I have, and I think it's enough.

Is that how you became The Wolf?