Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 25 Available - FHM 10 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 25 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Out of the Park Developments > Talk Sports

Talk Sports Discuss everything that is sports-related, like MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS, NASCAR, NCAA sports and teams, trades, coaches, bad calls etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-07-2020, 08:26 AM   #41
Reed
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,920
To me, this plan as someone else mentioned gives a big market team a big advantage.
A team like the Yankees can afford paying Judge hundreds of millions of dollars and still afford paying some free agents hundreds of millions, and maybe be under the salary cap since Judges salary is not included. The Yankees can afford to over pay fair market value to their prospects just to keep them from signing with other teams. Small market clubs would have to decide one or the other.
There is no easy answer. The capitalist in me says no draft and free agency for everyone but that may mean 4 or 5 super teams and then everyone else that basically have no chance. It would also mean pretty much doing away with minor leagues.

Last edited by Reed; 02-07-2020 at 08:32 AM.
Reed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 08:38 AM   #42
Hrycaj
All Star Starter
 
Hrycaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,358
I mean it is pretty obvious to me that the draft is an awful exploitation of a human being. What is more interesting is how the leagues have convinced the fan that the draft is a necessity for competitive balance. It is such a huge smoke screen. This article here does a good job of explaining things.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019...ts-drafts.html

Look at how the system works in its current form in baseball. Is it really providing competitive balance? It sure seems to me that a large majority of clubs are doing the developing of the talent to simply lose them to the same super spenders year in and year out. Fans love to point out that clubs like Tampa and Oakland have figured out how to stay competitive and use it as evidence to justify a flawed system. The truth is the big spenders will always be better equipped to compete than those that do not. The big spenders also infuse excitement in their fan bases on a regular basis as well as they go out and actively spend on star power. Would this get worse in a draftless system? Maybe it does. Maybe it is for the better. Maybe the league finds it true level and all the super spenders break off and create their own league instead of fooling the fans into thinking that the current system is fair for all.

Now my knowledge of English and European football is limited but from what I have read it seems the major complaint in the draftless systems is that the major spenders operate youth academies and hoard all the potential talent and that is also an exploitation. We know this to be true if you look at how MLB clubs operate in Latin countries. Notice that there is no international amateur draft either. It should come as no surprise that the percentage of Latin American players continue to rise on MLB rosters.

https://www.mlb.com/press-release/op...-u-s-270131918

Now the MLB will pat itself on the back and say this is diversity (which I am all for) but in truth I think it is just another exploitation loophole they found. A easier way to control talent and not pay for it.

Maybe a middle ground can be found? I don't know. Can you keep a draft and still empower the player? Like the drafted player can negotiate with any club but the drafted club has a final opportunity to match the offer? That would give the player more power but it still doesn't fix the whole forcing a player to play for a team and city he may not want to. However, not having a viable solution does not justify keeping an exploitive system in place.
__________________
Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/showthread.php?t=326812
Hrycaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 10:21 AM   #43
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
Baseball players who have to wait an "extra" year to become FA's because their parent team delayed calling them up aren't exploited.
Counterpoint: Yes, those people absolutely are being exploited.

People who are being paid less than the market would pay them because that's what the law/rule allows are 100% being exploited.
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 10:25 AM   #44
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
yhey are exploiting, taking full advantage, of the rule.
The rule that *they* made
To exploit the players
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 10:26 AM   #45
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reed View Post
It would also mean pretty much doing away with minor leagues.
Why is that
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 10:55 AM   #46
Cobra Mgr
Hall Of Famer
 
Cobra Mgr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Parts unknown
Posts: 6,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrycaj View Post
I mean it is pretty obvious to me that the draft is an awful exploitation of a human being. What is more interesting is how the leagues have convinced the fan that the draft is a necessity for competitive balance. It is such a huge smoke screen. This article here does a good job of explaining things.
I think the draft is exploitive of the situation. I don't see it as exploitive of the human being. Before the rookie salary caps, NFL/NBA rookies used to hold out for exorbitant salaries before they had proven themselves. Sam Bradford was one of the highest paid players in the NFL. Were the agents exploiting the owners or were they exploiting the situation to their advantage?

Exploiting a human being is taking away their free will in order to satisfy another's whims or wishes.

I will agree somewhat with the smoke screen description because all of these financial rules are more for helping all the owners maximize individual profits more than it is there to make sure each team can win. No current rule exists that will encourage competitive balance. The only thing that will encourage competition in the front office is tying share of the revenues to success on the field.
__________________
If a man is guilty
4 what goes on inside of his mind,
then let me get the electric chair
4 all my future crimes.

- Prince
Batdance
June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016
Cobra Mgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 02:20 PM   #47
ezpkns34
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
Exploiting a human being is taking away their free will in order to satisfy another's whims or wishes.
such as the human being getting no choice in where they work?
ezpkns34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 05:31 PM   #48
Ragnar
Hall Of Famer
 
Ragnar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
No, I didn't. Once more, I said it is exploiting (definition) the situation, the rule, not the player. Please don't turn this into the Immaculate Reception thing all over again. I don't like engaging in convos in forums where my words and thoughts are purposely distorted though they are clearly on the screen for all to read and understand. If we can't discuss this maturely w/o resorting to such unnecessary tactics just let me know so I can put you on ignore.
How did a suggestion for a work around the cap go to exploitation?

As far as the NFL goes, players are likely to be paid more as a result (granted, not much more) than not by giving a discount to drafted players.

Free agents in the NFL will most likely take a hit. Sorry, there's usually a reason you're a free agent.

The SalCap in the NFL was to supposedly even the playing field. Like you said, it makes it much harder to pay whatever you want to get the best players. But there is no denying it keeps player salaries down.

What I am saying now has nothing to do with your proposal. It's just an opinion on the side. But if I had to guess, I'd say parity was the excuse used to get the salary cap. The original intent was to find a way to keep player salaries down. Think about it, what would the owners care more about? Player salaries or parity?

I never liked the salary cap because I feel it's the owners job to try and win championships. If the owner doesn't care, why should the fan? The other reason is that it leaves very little chance for dynasties and long lasting rivalries. What you suggest is the best of both worlds. Draft well and any team can acquire and maintain talent indefinitely. But unlike the pre SalCap era, it's not guaranteed.
Ragnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 05:58 PM   #49
ezpkns34
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
The SalCap in the NFL was to supposedly even the playing field. Like you said, it makes it much harder to pay whatever you want to get the best players. But there is no denying it keeps player salaries down.

There's also the chance that the added parity is something that helped the NFL become more popular and hence grow salaries. Not really possible to tell what, if any, impact parity has actually had on ratings/popularity, but the possibility is at least there
ezpkns34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 06:01 PM   #50
Cobra Mgr
Hall Of Famer
 
Cobra Mgr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Parts unknown
Posts: 6,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpkns34 View Post
such as the human being getting no choice in where they work?
They still have choice. If my son were to choose to become a pro player in whatever sport, he is making a choice to go thru whatever process it takes to reach that goal willingly. He knows, or should know, what he is getting himself into. No one has blinders put on them when they seek to enter the NFL,NBA,MLB etc unless they put it on themselves. And the rules for that are negotiated by the players and owners together. They will eventually get their chance to dictate where they want, but they have to get in the door first. Just like most any other career. President, lawyer, singer, business exec, McD's manager, whatever.

The narrow definition some of you have for the exploitation of human beings makes just about every institution you can think of as exploitive of man. Education, religion, medicine....There are guidelines for entry, promotion, incentives, benefits. The draft & service time is no different.
__________________
If a man is guilty
4 what goes on inside of his mind,
then let me get the electric chair
4 all my future crimes.

- Prince
Batdance
June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016
Cobra Mgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 06:19 PM   #51
Reed
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Why is that
If you do away with the draft and install free agency for all, what is the incentive of spending millions and millions of dollars on a minor league system if that player is a free agent and sign with the highest bidder once they are major league caliber. In this case, I could see MLB being like the NBA or NFL in letting the colleges being their basic minor league system. Actually they would be more like the the NBA and their g league. Like the NBA, teams would have one minor league team where players can go for rehab or the few college/amateur players they sign can go to sharpen their skills. Again, there is no incentive for teams to spend millions of dollars trying to develop a player if another team can snatch them up as soon as they are major league capable.
Reed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 09:08 PM   #52
pilight
All Star Starter
 
pilight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Where the Action is
Posts: 1,744
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezpkns34 View Post
There's also the chance that the added parity is something that helped the NFL become more popular and hence grow salaries. Not really possible to tell what, if any, impact parity has actually had on ratings/popularity, but the possibility is at least there
There's no more parity in the NFL than there was before the salary cap
pilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 02:14 AM   #53
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
They still have choice. If my son were to choose to become a pro player in whatever sport, he is making a choice to go thru whatever process it takes to reach that goal willingly. He knows, or should know, what he is getting himself into. No one has blinders put on them when they seek to enter the NFL,NBA,MLB etc unless they put it on themselves. And the rules for that are negotiated by the players and owners together. They will eventually get their chance to dictate where they want, but they have to get in the door first. Just like most any other career. President, lawyer, singer, business exec, McD's manager, whatever.

The narrow definition some of you have for the exploitation of human beings makes just about every institution you can think of as exploitive of man. Education, religion, medicine....There are guidelines for entry, promotion, incentives, benefits. The draft & service time is no different.
Imagine licking that much bull crap off a pair of boots.

Players chose to play baseball so however the teams want to exploit them is fine.

Get out of here with that

And the attempt to compare being a baseball player to being a singer is [redacted].

First there's the [redacted] argument that because things are bad for one group they should be bad for another. How about instead of being an [redacted] you consider that maybe making things better for everyone might be good.

Then, what the [redacted] singer spends the first six years of their career performing for peanuts before they are allowed to earn what they produce? And, again, what kind of an "redacted" thinks that's ok?
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 03:00 AM   #54
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Imagine licking that much bull crap off a pair of boots.

Players chose to play baseball so however the teams want to exploit them is fine.

Get out of here with that
What Cobra posts makes it sound like he's a hereditary member of the 1%.
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 03:04 AM   #55
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
Before the rookie salary caps, NFL/NBA rookies used to hold out for exorbitant salaries before they had proven themselves.
How were the salaries exorbitant? SOME players turned out to not be worth what was paid. But some did. The teams weren't coerced to offer the money.

As far as being unproven, the teams had reason to believe their performance would justify the price. Just as a person who agrees to five years at $500 a month on a car expects performance to match that. But it may not. Future performance is unproven.
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 06:51 AM   #56
Ragnar
Hall Of Famer
 
Ragnar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad K View Post
What Cobra posts makes it sound like he's a hereditary member of the 1%.
I'd say just the opposite. Those that aren't wealthy have to go through the process put forth by those with power and money. Do you want that money? Go through their process. They have every right to set the rules when it's their money being handed out. You have two choices, dive in, or let someone else take your place.
Ragnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 06:57 AM   #57
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad K View Post
How were the salaries exorbitant?
They weren't
If one out of a hundred athletes underperforms their contract it's "exorbitant". And the 99 other cases where the athlete overperforms it's just playing by the rules.

Cobra, like so many others, including me until recently, has been brainwashed to favor ownership


Exhibit A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
Those that aren't wealthy have to go through the process put forth by those with power and money. Do you want that money? Go through their process. They have every right to set the rules when it's their money being handed out.

Last edited by CBeisbol; 02-08-2020 at 06:59 AM.
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 07:22 AM   #58
Ragnar
Hall Of Famer
 
Ragnar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
They weren't
If one out of a hundred athletes underperforms their contract it's "exorbitant". And the 99 other cases where the athlete overperforms it's just playing by the rules.

Cobra, like so many others, including me until recently, has been brainwashed to favor ownership
LOL brainwashed. If I'm the owner I make the rules. It's my money. Don't like it? Go elsewhere. You have no right to someone else's money. If you want to beg, you should be on your knees. You have no grounds to demand.

I don't care about owners or player salary. I care about the team(s) I love. I personally do not like the idea of a salary cap. I hate it. If some owners don't care if their team wins, too bad. But this thread was started with the salary cap in mind.
Ragnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 07:57 AM   #59
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
They still have choice. If my son were to choose to become a pro player in whatever sport, he is making a choice to go thru whatever process it takes to reach that goal willingly.

Yea, Cobra, I get it. Same thing as when I was a kid. If a black guy wanted to be a truck driver he had to first hang on the back of the truck chucking cans for a few years. Eventually they'd let him drive the garbage truck. He had a choice. If he wanted to be a truck driver he had to get in line to drive a garbage truck. If he didn't like that he could get a job repairing shoes.
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 07:59 AM   #60
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
LOL brainwashed. If I'm the owner I make the rules. It's my money. Don't like it? Go elsewhere.
Where else? Baseball is a monopoly with an anti trust exemption.
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:39 AM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2020 Out of the Park Developments