The "Steroids Era"

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by psd

For me, as far as the HOF anyways, the solution is this:

Build a wing. It's part of the main building but not actually in it. Just attached to it. ( I've never been there. I don't know the layout). It is accessible only from the main HOF. There is a sign in front of a queue to access it. "The players in this room had careers that should enable them to be in the HOF. However, due to PED suspicions, they are placed in this room, so their careers could be acknowledged. Do not enter this room if you feel they do not belong in the HOF. In the event it has been PROVEN 100% that they DID NOT use PEDS, they will be moved to the regular HOF permanently. If, on the other hand it is proven 100% that they DID use PEDS, they will be removed from THIS room, and their careers will not be acknowledged as legitimate by the HOF."

Maybe not a perfect solution. But they are IN the HOF, but not IN the HOF.

For other players, I stated in another post that failing a drug test should void their salary, and bring them down to the league minimum for the duration of what is left on their contract. Re-tests and new tests conducted to avoid ANY false positives. Hell even use polygraphs if they fail a test and outright ask them. But it's well worth the risk. Anybody who thinks players are clean now are delusional. 30 million a year contracts are here, with 40 soon to follow IMO. It's WELL worth the risk of the small chance of getting caught. MLB needs to make it NOT worth it. THEN you will see a sharp decline in numbers.

So this year inductees are Bagwell, Raines and Pudge. Do Bagwell and Pudge go in the wing you just described?

[psd]

I think if there was such a wing they should have been placed in there, yes. They were "suspected of PED usage."

What's your solution? Just let everybody in? Tell me what your solution to this issue is?

[darkhorse]

https://theringer.com/2017-mlb-home-...s-6e1dd0233203

MLB has had the baseballs tested from two different periods from the past two years and there is no change in the composition of the baseballs.

As in basketball, the players are bigger, stronger, faster, better trained and coached than their predecessors. Laziness is filtered out in competitive sports, unlike in the logic and reasoning of sports and message board commentators.

And, I see you're doubling down on the ignorance regarding testing, since the trends in the home run rate don't fit your warped view. Obviously, to a conspiracy theorist, the reason has to be your baseless claim that drug testing is useless. Facts and science mean nothing to you or form any basis for your arguments.

Congrats on conceding that you are completely wrong and your points embarrassingly inept.

The fact that people are innocent until proven guilty makes your suggestion about building a new wing in the HOF utterly ridiculous.

Originally Posted by psd

https://theringer.com/2017-mlb-home-...s-6e1dd0233203

The balls have been tested? Really? How? By whom? MLB?? Nah, they would NEVER lie to the public. I mean, look how open they were about the steroid issue at the beginning. The year Mcgwire & Sosa chased the HR record. MLB put a stop to that real quick, huh?

Matthew Trueblood in that article I linked above said this. “We can hem and haw about the lack of perfect evidence, and we certainly aren’t going to get commissioner Rob Manfred to admit it or anything, but the league juiced the baseball in the summer of 2015, and they haven’t unjuiced it.”

I think I will side with someone who writes for BP rather than someone on a message board. That article also said former coaches AND players concurred. I think they would know FAR more than you would. Since they, you know, actually played the game.


And you honestly don't think players , who by your own admission, have been taking steroids and finding ways to cheat and gain an advantage since day 1, haven't or don't have the know-how to beat these laughable drug tests?? Who is the one divorced from reality here?

And several players FAILED tests. If you, you know, actually would bother to try to educate YOURSELF, instead of thinking you know all & assuming what others know and think and trying to educate THEM, you would know WHY they failed. So much for my paranoid delusions.

Enjoy your summer. Adios. Now I add you to my ignore list.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by psd

I think if there was such a wing they should have been placed in there, yes. They were "suspected of PED usage."

What's your solution? Just let everybody in? Tell me what your solution to this issue is?

So, If I suspect that Nolan Ryan did steroids, because the end of his career is an exact replica of that of Roger Clemons, is that suspicion enough to get him moved to that wing? Ryan played for Texas. Tom House

What about Carlton Fisk? Did he just life weights or ....?

We can raise suspicion or create suspicion for so many players.

Would Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine or John Smoltz belong in that wing?

[jaxmagicman]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

And you think that players haven't always worked every angle possible to win since Bobby Mathews threw the first pitch on opening day, 1871? Now who's naive? The steroids lynch mob isn't concerned at all with justice, they just want the players to fit their fantasy of the good ol' days. A time that never existed except in their infantile delusions.

And even in the days of Babe Ruth, I don't find it to be above board, because Babe Ruth didn't have to play against the best players of his days. He only had to play against the best white players. The majority of the world wasn't allowed to play, unless you were lily white.

[psd]

Originally Posted by David Watts

So, If I suspect that Nolan Ryan did steroids, because the end of his career is an exact replica of that of Roger Clemons, is that suspicion enough to get him moved to that wing? Ryan played for Texas. Tom House

What about Carlton Fisk? Did he just life weights or ....?

We can raise suspicion or create suspicion for so many players.

Would Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine or John Smoltz belong in that wing?

I asked what your solution would be then? You didn't answer.

And I certainly wasn't aware that YOUR thoughts & suspicions were the deciding factor. And I don't recall Carlton Fisk suddenly hitting 50 or 60 homers after averaging 17 his career.

Clemens went 20-3 3.51 as a 38 year old in the AL east
Ryan went 10-12 3.80 as a 38 year old in the NL west.
Yup. Exact replica.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by psd

I asked what your solution would be then? You didn't answer.

And I certainly wasn't aware that YOUR thoughts & suspicions were the deciding factor. And I don't recall Carlton Fisk suddenly hitting 50 or 60 homers after averaging 17 his career.

Clemens went 20-3 3.51 as a 38 year old in the AL east
Ryan went 10-12 3.80 as a 38 year old in the NL west.
Yup. Exact replica.

So you just ignored Ryan and Clemens later years and chose their 38 year old season to make your point.

Not sure I have a solution. A couple years ago, I would have been agreeing with you 100%.

Thanks for making my point. You chastise me and say that you didn't know my suspicions were the deciding factor, but put Bagwell and Pudge in the "Wing of Suspicious Gentleman" based on what?

Fisk hit 37 home runs in 1985. Before that his highest total was 26. Go look at the film. The body on that 37 home run guy was a lot different than the body of the guy that waved that homer fair in 75. So, based on that and the fact that I'm the deciding factor, I say he was a massive roids abuser.

Do you think Roger Maris did steroids? What about Jose Bautista? Edwin Encarnacion? What happens when David Ortiz comes up for induction? The Mitchell Report made it perfectly clear that no Boston Red Sox ever even used bad language, let alone used a steroid.

[CONN CHRIS]

What about the Big Hurt's hat size? I am still suspicious.

[CONN CHRIS]

Babe Ruth injected hormones. At least I think he did. Off to the psd wing with the Bambino.

[darkhorse]

Nolan Ryan totaled 4.4 WAR in his age 38 season.
Clemens totaled 5.6 WAR in his age 38 season.

Roger was better, but they were both excellent.

In his age 42 season, Nolan Ryan totaled 7.0 WAR.
In his age 42 season, Roger Clemens totaled 6.0 WAR.

Don't expect logic or common sense to filter into anything that psd posts, and his cherry picking of the data is well established and typical of his mindset.

[Cobra Mgr]

It doesn't matter if steroids helped or not. The issue isn't the value of PED's. The issue is it was against the rules. Fans who want to put known, emphasis, known PED users into the HOF encourage cheating. Let's make the politician prez when he stuffs the ballot box. Let's make the student who steals the answers to the tests valedictorian. Let's give the insider trader a tax break.

You don't reward cheaters. You don't honor them. Yeah, society makes a special room for them. It's called jail. The benefits, perceived or real, is irrelevant to the HOF if it is to remain an honor.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

It doesn't matter if steroids helped or not. The issue isn't the value of PED's. The issue is it was against the rules. Fans who want to put known, emphasis, known PED users into the HOF encourage cheating. Let's make the politician prez when he stuffs the ballot box. Let's make the student who steals the answers to the tests valedictorian. Let's give the insider trader a tax break.

You don't reward cheaters. You don't honor them. Yeah, society makes a special room for them. It's called jail. The benefits, perceived or real, is irrelevant to the HOF if it is to remain an honor.

I agree with you 100% that cheating should not be allowed nor rewarded.

The questions that I wrestle with are these: If "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" how do we know who should or should not be punished? Should everyone be punished wholesale? Should only those who rise above the rest be punished as representatives for the whole? Should no one be punished since "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" and therefore everyone is on "equal footing"? What about all of the unknown cheaters? Should only those who get caught, who are known, be punished?

I think these questions are what it boils down to. Not is it wrong or is it right to cheat. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that cheating is okay.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I agree with you 100% that cheating should not be allowed nor rewarded.

The questions that I wrestle with are these: If "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" how do we know who should or should not be punished? Should everyone be punished wholesale? Should only those who rise above the rest be punished as representatives for the whole? Should no one be punished since "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" and therefore everyone is on "equal footing"? What about all of the unknown cheaters? Should only those who get caught, who are known, be punished?

I think these questions are what it boils down to. Not is it wrong or is it right to cheat. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that cheating is okay.

Do we refrain from jailing people because we don't know all the other people who have committed crimes? It'd be nice if we could get every single individual for every time they broke the law. But that doesn't mean we punish zero because we can't punish all.

That's why I emphasized known. Those that got away with it, got away with it. May their conscience burn them for the rest of their lives. But I'm not in favor of letting the known cheaters go scott free. You get caught, you get what's coming to you.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Do we refrain from jailing people because we don't know all the other people who have committed crimes? It'd be nice if we could get every single individual for every time they broke the law. But that doesn't mean we punish zero because we can't punish all.

That's why I emphasized known. Those that got away with it, got away with it. May their conscience burn them for the rest of their lives. But I'm not in favor of letting the known cheaters go scott free. You get caught, you get what's coming to you.

So, I ask you, this years inductees, Pudge and Bagwell, do you let them in? PSD said he would put them in the Suspicious Wing, but as far as I know neither one has been officially proven to have used. You said known, but it seems there are so many different levels of known.

[cephasjames]

Also, how far back do we go for the known PED users? What about greenies and other PEDs from the past? Do we remove those guys from the HoF?

[darkhorse]

Goodbye, Willie Mays, under that scenario.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by psd

Why does or more importantly, why should it matter how many?

Because there is the implicit assumption that anyone who hits more home runs than the supposed previous 'norm' has done so by illicit means, specifically, performance enhancing drugs. It effectively demonizes outliers. And there are always outliers.

Ben Johnson, in the 1988 Summer Olympics, set what was then a world record time in the 100 metre dash of 9.79 seconds. It later turned out he had used steroids, and that performance was expunged from the records. Since then, that time has been beaten on five occasions—with the world record now standing at 9.58 seconds. Does that mean all 100 metre times under or near 9.79 seconds are suspect due to Johnson's use of steroids? Given that (as far as is known) those faster times were set legitimately, what does that say about steroid-enhanced times? Clearly, performance-enhancing drugs are not necessarily required to achieve remarkable athletic results.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by David Watts

So, I ask you, this years inductees, Pudge and Bagwell, do you let them in? PSD said he would put them in the Suspicious Wing, but as far as I know neither one has been officially proven to have used. You said known, but it seems there are so many different levels of known.

Agreed. There are the "knowns" among the paranoid and the "knowns" among those with agendas.

There is a ton of evidence against Pudge. Canseco himself admitted he injected Pudge. And as much as everybody hates Jose, every thing he claimed on PED's turned out to be correct. Then you add his non committal response to questions about his use. There are other indications as well. Pudge was one of my favorite players. But I wouldn't vote him in.

Bagwell....the "evidence" against him is that his HR totals jumped when he reached the majors. It may have been larger than you'd expect, but aren't you supposed to improve as you advance through the farm? They are accusing him because no one ever did what he had done.That's not evidence. That's skepticism. Bags should have been in Cooperstown a loooong time ago.

[psd]

Originally Posted by David Watts

So you just ignored Ryan and Clemens later years and chose their 38 year old season to make your point.

Not sure I have a solution. A couple years ago, I would have been agreeing with you 100%.

Thanks for making my point. You chastise me and say that you didn't know my suspicions were the deciding factor, but put Bagwell and Pudge in the "Wing of Suspicious Gentleman" based on what?

Fisk hit 37 home runs in 1985. Before that his highest total was 26. Go look at the film. The body on that 37 home run guy was a lot different than the body of the guy that waved that homer fair in 75. So, based on that and the fact that I'm the deciding factor, I say he was a massive roids abuser.

Do you think Roger Maris did steroids? What about Jose Bautista? Edwin Encarnacion? What happens when David Ortiz comes up for induction? The Mitchell Report made it perfectly clear that no Boston Red Sox ever even used bad language, let alone used a steroid.

My point for choosing their 38 year old (isnt that considered a "later"year? Haven't heard of many 38 year old rookies), and I admit I didn't make my point clear enough, is that look at what Clemens does after 5 years of .500 pitching. He was done. Then MAGICALLY his velocity goes way up and he pitches like he did when he was young. When did Ryan have this transformation?? I don't recall any stretch other than his 40 YO season, that seemed WAY out of the ordinary for Ryan.
And I never said that I am the deciding factor. YOU did, You asked me a question. I answered it. Do you think Pudge & Bagwell were NOT suspected of PED use? They were. And yes, I suspect there are still a lot of PED users. Players just haven't earned the benefit of the doubt yet.

And I never said my solution was perfect. It does help the problem with the HOF, but doesn't help the issue with WHO to induct and who not to. Which is the biggest issue of all. But at least I try. I don't sit back and make fun of others and offer up nothing of my own.

But you have no solution to offer. Just ridicule someone elses. Either offer up YOUR own solution, or STFU.

[psd]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Babe Ruth injected hormones. At least I think he did. Off to the psd wing with the Bambino.

So let's hear YOUR solution. I love it when people mock and criticize others but offer up absolutely NOTHING of their own. So, lets hear it. Or STFU.