Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 25 Available - FHM 10 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 25 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Out of the Park Baseball 20 > OOTP 20 - General Discussions

OOTP 20 - General Discussions Everything about the newest version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-16-2020, 06:40 AM   #1
italyprof
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 973
Why is Warren Spahn rated so low? and what can I do about it?

Warren Spahn was a dominant pitcher for more than a decade, probably the best of the whole 1950s and even as late as 1960-61 arguably the best pitcher in the game.

I have him on my 1960 team now starting 1961. Straight up historical - no random debut, just 1960. Double value to current year.

Spahn, who in 1959 - RL 1959 - went 22-11 with a 2.96 ERA and in 1960 RL went 21-10 with a 3.50 - in MY 1960 was 8-16 with a 4.95.

He is rated overall as 52/52. While movement and control are rated at 60/65, which seems ok, stuff is 40/45, which seems low even though he was not a power pitcher. Further, his pitches ratings are very low: His screwball -- his best pitch, is rated at 40, only because I edited it up from 27 (!), sinker 45, curveball 35, slider 30, changeup 40, fastball 45.

Yet his lifetime stats show that he should be a first-rate pitcher through 1963.

What is up? Is this a glitch? A mistake? A Dodgers fan from the old days setting the ratings?

What could I do about it, without "cheating" - should I edit these ratings somewhat to be a little more realistic, so I don't have a Spahn that loses 20 games each of his last five or six seasons and ends up with a lifetime ERA of 5.00?

If I edit the ratings, what would be reasonable ones, without me gaming the game as it were?

Thanks in advance for any insight or suggestions.
italyprof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 07:07 AM   #2
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Just looking at some of the advanced stats as listed in Baseball Reference, it seems that he was just a pretty average pitcher in 1960. His ERA+ was 98. His WAR was 2.7 and his WAA (wins above average) was 0.1. I don't know if all of that explains it but some other things can also affect his year end ERA. If his defense in your sim playing behind him was worse than real life then that would affect his ERA in a negative way. I don't play much historical so I'm sure someone else with experience may have some more useful input on this.
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 09:15 PM   #3
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,259
Due to the luck factor wins and era aren't a good measure of performance.

There was a similar complaint posted recently about Clay Carroll early 70s,
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2020, 09:38 AM   #4
David Watts
Hall Of Famer
 
David Watts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks
Posts: 8,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by italyprof View Post
Warren Spahn was a dominant pitcher for more than a decade, probably the best of the whole 1950s and even as late as 1960-61 arguably the best pitcher in the game.

I have him on my 1960 team now starting 1961. Straight up historical - no random debut, just 1960. Double value to current year.

Spahn, who in 1959 - RL 1959 - went 22-11 with a 2.96 ERA and in 1960 RL went 21-10 with a 3.50 - in MY 1960 was 8-16 with a 4.95.

He is rated overall as 52/52. While movement and control are rated at 60/65, which seems ok, stuff is 40/45, which seems low even though he was not a power pitcher. Further, his pitches ratings are very low: His screwball -- his best pitch, is rated at 40, only because I edited it up from 27 (!), sinker 45, curveball 35, slider 30, changeup 40, fastball 45.

Yet his lifetime stats show that he should be a first-rate pitcher through 1963.

What is up? Is this a glitch? A mistake? A Dodgers fan from the old days setting the ratings?

What could I do about it, without "cheating" - should I edit these ratings somewhat to be a little more realistic, so I don't have a Spahn that loses 20 games each of his last five or six seasons and ends up with a lifetime ERA of 5.00?

If I edit the ratings, what would be reasonable ones, without me gaming the game as it were?

Thanks in advance for any insight or suggestions.
So, how has he performed in your league so far?
David Watts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2020, 07:58 PM   #5
italyprof
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 973
8-16 with a 4.95 in 1960, David.

We have only played a few games into 1961. So I will let you know more as the season progresses.
italyprof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2020, 11:43 AM   #6
Eugene Church
Hall Of Famer
 
Eugene Church's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 34,997
Blog Entries: 1
I used to play with real players back in OOTP6.5... but over the years too many of the great players performed poorly... I gave it up when Tom Seaver went 7-22 in my league with a 5.00 ERA... and Harmon Killebrew was just a mediocre hitter... batting .230 and not being able to win a spot in the regular lineup.

But, in defense of OOTP, it was an all-time all-star league with nothing but the greatest players... I could understand why Killebrew might have problems, but not Seaver, who was one of the absolute best of all-time.

Since then, I'm sure the game has made good progress in taking care of this aspect of the game... but it will never be perfect, the way we would like it... there will always be some aberrations.. perhaps, I'll give real players another try in OOTP21... but I'm sure I will notice its flaws... over the last 18 years I have mellowed a lot and just accept the fact OOTP will never be absolute perfection and I just accept it the way it is.... an absolutely wonderful game... for me it's the Dream Game of a Lifetime... it was my teenage dream in 1954 that one day there would be a game that would keep the scorebook, keep the league standings and do the stats for my leagues... when I retired in 2002 I discovered my Dream Game.

My Solution:
Switched to fictional players where I have no expectations as to how they should perform... but now my problem is: good players with good ratings don't play well... but that's just my own personal affliction: I am rarely satisfied... unrealistically, I would like everything to be perfect.

Last edited by Eugene Church; 02-22-2020 at 07:27 PM.
Eugene Church is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2020, 09:23 PM   #7
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7,167
you'd either have to make your league statisticalaly similar to the era he came from, or edit the player to fit your league's era. if you minimized HR, i bet he'd perform as you expect, maybe? he might then overperform in a low BA league, compared to his era -- total guess here.. hypothesizing.

if he's low velo, that's probably going to be the major factor that can be a quick fix. also the hardest to rationalize.

if you want him to be a similar style with similar success, you may need to bump some pitches 201+ in editor, maybe? extreme movement/contol will help too. trial and error in any combination etc... find a way he resembles what you want to see.

i'd also give fictional a try. there's a finite # of seasons you can play with real players no matter what.. maybe not this release but eventually you'll want to get your feet wet with fictional players. it makes scouting inaccuracy a true-r handicap, too.

i typically have a current year MLB with real players and a fictional league going each release. i play the real world league a lot less, since they are mostly gone after a few seasons and at that point i'd rather play my fictional league. restarting from current year isn't unheard of, but i tend to remember when FA were available, and it is basically cheating at that point, lol. plus, i know all the amatuers too look for at that point too. i know too much about the players' ratings and when they will be available. it's near omnipotence the first 5 seasons.

Last edited by NoOne; 02-23-2020 at 09:34 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 11:22 AM   #8
Hoiles
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 572
Spahn and Jim Palmer were two dominant pitchers of the era who had great defenses behind them. The statistical model that OOTP uses penalizes them due to their relatively mediocre K/BB ratios. I played a historical season or two with them, and if their stats were as expected when on their real teams, but if you did a fantasy historical league with the teams switched around they were pretty average.

Though, it's hard to say if in real life they were just a product of their team, or if they really did have a special skill to take advantage of that defense and were one of those rare outliers missed by the model. .

If you'd like them to be more dominant, I would suggest to boost up the stuff rating a bit so that they allow less hits. Perhaps make it so the projected ERA is in the high 2's-low 3's like in the historical season.
Hoiles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 11:53 AM   #9
Eugene Church
Hall Of Famer
 
Eugene Church's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 34,997
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoiles View Post
Spahn and Jim Palmer were two dominant pitchers of the era who had great defenses behind them. The statistical model that OOTP uses penalizes them due to their relatively mediocre K/BB ratios. I played a historical season or two with them, and if their stats were as expected when on their real teams, but if you did a fantasy historical league with the teams switched around they were pretty average.

Though, it's hard to say if in real life they were just a product of their team, or if they really did have a special skill to take advantage of that defense and were one of those rare outliers missed by the model. .

If you'd like them to be more dominant, I would suggest to boost up the stuff rating a bit so that they allow less hits. Perhaps make it so the projected ERA is in the high 2's-low 3's like in the historical season.
I think you are on the right track... Spahn was not overpowering, but he kept teams off balance and messed up their timing... he must have had great stuff and movement... Spahn's philosophy was to throw something they were not expecting... sure, he played for the 50s Braves, a really good team, but Spahn was also a very fine pitcher... one of the best in the 50s and early 60s... Whitey Ford and Jim Palmer never performed well in my All-Time All-Star League... walk/strikeout ratio wasn't good compared to others.
Eugene Church is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 08:31 PM   #10
Dukie98
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 902
For what it's worth, the draft engine in my random debut league massively underrated Spahn. He was drafted 101st overall in my 48-team league - probably the single biggest outlier between historic value and draft position in the 39 years of my league.

In any event, Spahn was been very good, if not quite legendary- after having his first two seasons ruined by injuries, he's made the all-star team in two of his subsequent three seasons. He also threw a no-hitter in an elimination game in the playoffs last season. He's rated as 3 1/2 stars out of 5.
Dukie98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 09:44 PM   #11
scott1964
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 5,551
Blog Entries: 19
In my world 1947 was the first year we was healthy 95% of the season. He went 18-11, 2.84, 124 Ks. I have Whitey Ford in my minor league farm system and I will keep an eye on him and Carl Erskine.
__________________
This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles.

PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

scott1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2020, 11:03 AM   #12
Hoiles
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukie98 View Post
For what it's worth, the draft engine in my random debut league massively underrated Spahn. He was drafted 101st overall in my 48-team league - probably the single biggest outlier between historic value and draft position in the 39 years of my league.

In any event, Spahn was been very good, if not quite legendary- after having his first two seasons ruined by injuries, he's made the all-star team in two of his subsequent three seasons. He also threw a no-hitter in an elimination game in the playoffs last season. He's rated as 3 1/2 stars out of 5.
In random debuts, it seems 60's era pitchers are underrated, like Spahn, Palmer, even Bob Gibson (Sandy Koufax ends up being the greatest pitcher of all time though). I think it's a function of pitchers being normalized to current era stats.
Hoiles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2020, 04:15 AM   #13
italyprof
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 973
Thank you everyone for very helpful and insightful comments. I do think the issue is mostly two things: 1) in 1960 Spahn was just a little above average looking closely, and being on a great team probably made a big difference; and 2) he was much bette in real life in 1961 and in fact in my league is already pitching like I expected from Warren Spahn, but I think the AI does reduce control pitchers too much in favor of fastball pitchers. That whole - frankly overrated "three true outcomes" thing, flying in the face of what every pitcher ever has said about their work. But I have learned a lot from all of you and am grateful.
italyprof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2020, 04:16 AM   #14
italyprof
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 973
ps - the 1960s pitchers being somewhat reduced in ability by the random debut system also makes some difference. A lot of 1960s era pitchers underperform. They were in the second deadball era in a way, but maybe the AI overcompensates when it has to compare eras for random debut?
italyprof is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:31 AM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2020 Out of the Park Developments