SP vs RP

KingKronosDC84 · 10-25-2015, 01:12 AM

When changing an SP to an RP the pitcher normally gets a increase to their stuff. Is there any detriment to doing this to your whole staff? or is the only negative eligibility for awards, all-star ect. Considering they are still eligible to pitch as starters even in the RP role. Is the morale hit of not being a starter the main reason? I've been in leagues where nearly every team does it and others where none do, with no real consensus .

Help anyone??

Number4 · 10-25-2015, 02:00 AM

Don't do it. Relievers get more stuff, because they can give more effort during their shorter outings and therefore throw the ball harder. But they will not last enough innings as starters.

KingKronosDC84 · 10-25-2015, 02:50 AM

Does it actually effect their stamina though? I've seen SP position switched to RPs still go 6 plus innings.

Number4 · 10-25-2015, 03:55 AM

Play a game out. You'll notice that a starter manages around 100 pitches before becoming "tired", while a reliever about 30. Even the highest stamina relievers would get only 40 pitches. Stamina is a factor in who becomes a starter, as you want a starter to last a lot of innings in a good outing.

If pitchers were cars, stamina is the size of the gas tank. Starting pitchers are cars cruising, relief pitchers are cars going full speed. You can set your car/pitcher to full speed (rp/cl) or cruising (sp). The bigger the gas tank, the more distance you get in the roles, but the total distance is always bigger in cruising and the speed higher in full speed.

Tip: Though not stamina-related, a starter needs 3 solid pitches or a knuckleball (not! a knuckle curve) to be a good starter, with few exceptions. A knuckleball could be the only pitch and he's still a starter.
If you want, I'll explain why.

Was your observed pitcher a starter used as reliever or actually set as reliever?

KingKronosDC84 · 10-25-2015, 05:58 AM

yes please explain, every little bit of info helps.

Number4 · 10-25-2015, 06:22 AM

As a starting pitcher pitches a lot of innings, batters face him a second or third time during the game. During every at bat, hitters "get used" to the pitcher, recognizing his delivery. So by the second and third time through the order, hitter performance improves. However, more pitches means also more differing deliveries to learn and this lessens this performance "penalty" for the pitcher.

A reliever seldom faces more than 9 batters, so this isn't important to them, therefore you get many 2-pitch relievers.

A knuckleballer is simply a different kind of pitcher and inherently unpredictable, so this rule does not apply to them.

TGH-Adfabre · 10-25-2015, 11:32 AM

I think my recollection is correct.
The displayed change in Stuff is shown to the player but not used by the game engine.
I think there is an adjustment for the familiarity of pitches. I do not think it has been explicitly explained.
Because the increase in stuff is for the user and not the engine. It does not matter if a player is positioned at RP or SP. What matters is their usage. If they are used as a SP then their stamina and recovery will act as a SP and the same for a RP. What I do not think is modeled is what happens if the user moves the actual usage role back and forth either very quickly (1start and 3 relief appearances in 8 days) or repeatedly over the course of a season (58 appearances and 25 GS). These numbers are off the top of my head, they are not perfect, just a basic illustration.

I think I read this from a beta tester or someone here that had put some time and energy into personally testing this.

YMMV

Number4 · 10-26-2015, 08:01 AM

If you move a player, his rest status gets recalculated based on pitches thrown. So you can't cheat the system, though you might use a player f.ex. as reliever between starts. This should be only done on special occasions though - in real life, lackey threw game 4 of the 2013 WS as reliever, while 2 and 6 as starter.

And though the way the game calculates it might be different, both in game and in RL, relievers throw better than starters.

TGH-Adfabre · 10-26-2015, 08:53 AM

Quote:

and in RL, relievers throw better than starters.

I am not sure I agree with this. The limited number of views by opposing hitters gives them an advantage. The limited number of batters and innings allows them to go closer to all out. I do not think that equates better throwers.

Number4 · 10-26-2015, 09:00 AM

They don't become better players, but the same player has better results, measured in let's say ERA, from the bullpen instead as a starter.

TGH-Adfabre · 10-26-2015, 09:07 AM

Ok

KingKronosDC84 · 10-26-2015, 10:04 PM

I'm in plenty of leagues where ever SP is set to RP and they've picked up 200 plus innings without problem. Thats why I wonder if theres really an advantage to them being set as SPs or not.

Izz · 10-26-2015, 10:50 PM

I'm pretty sure if a reliever is used to start a game he doesn't get that stuff bonus.

Reed · 10-27-2015, 12:52 PM

Yes, it seems like my relievers lost their "stuff" boost when I've had to use a reliever as a starter. I guess you could bring in a reliever (or another starter???) after one batter and have that "stuff" boost, but that would just be "cheating" the AI IMO.

Number4 · 10-27-2015, 02:08 PM

It would only be cheating if he lasts 100 pitches, not 30. I think it is very unlikely that a pitcher gets both starting pitcher stamina bonus and reliever stuff bonus during the same outing.

cuervo72 · 10-27-2015, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingKronosDC84

I'm in plenty of leagues where ever SP is set to RP and they've picked up 200 plus innings without problem. Thats why I wonder if theres really an advantage to them being set as SPs or not.

I've wondered this too, and I don't think it actually matters. I think it is largely cosmetic, in that if a pitcher is set as an SP we will see his stuff through the SP lense, if set as RP we see it through the RP lens, but performance and stamina work the same no matter how the player is classified.

AFAIK, the game looks at the effectiveness of a pitcher's pitches. Having two pitches that are rated 10 might give a guy 12 stuff as a RP, but that could be knocked down to a 9 if labeled as a SP because the game is looking for a 3rd pitch, isn't seeing it, and docks the pitcher's rating (he's not getting the RP "bonus"). The kicker here though is that in my experience, that pitcher still won't perform as well as a guy who has 3 pitches and the same stuff rating -- his K-rate will be considerably lower than you'd expect. Not only does he not have the stuff rating he'd have as a RP, he appears to be also getting a penalty just by starting the game.

There may be something affecting performance by number of pitches as well as far as stamina and K-rate goes, but it's not a function of raw innings. Take this guy for example:

Player Report for #5 Pat Sinclair

Look at his seasons as a starter compared to those as a "reliever." He posted 200.2 IP in 2050 as a starter, but only recorded 115K. In 2055 he pitched 214, all in relief, and fanned 209. As I said above - I think as a starter he was taking a penalty solely from starting w/o a third pitch. Enter in say, the 3rd inning? No problem.

10-25-2015, 01:12 AM	#1
KingKronosDC84 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Madison,WI Posts: 21	SP vs RP When changing an SP to an RP the pitcher normally gets a increase to their stuff. Is there any detriment to doing this to your whole staff? or is the only negative eligibility for awards, all-star ect. Considering they are still eligible to pitch as starters even in the RP role. Is the morale hit of not being a starter the main reason? I've been in leagues where nearly every team does it and others where none do, with no real consensus . Help anyone??

10-25-2015, 02:50 AM	#3
KingKronosDC84 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Madison,WI Posts: 21	Does it actually effect their stamina though? I've seen SP position switched to RPs still go 6 plus innings. Last edited by KingKronosDC84; 10-25-2015 at 03:01 AM.

10-25-2015, 03:55 AM	#4
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Play a game out. You'll notice that a starter manages around 100 pitches before becoming "tired", while a reliever about 30. Even the highest stamina relievers would get only 40 pitches. Stamina is a factor in who becomes a starter, as you want a starter to last a lot of innings in a good outing. If pitchers were cars, stamina is the size of the gas tank. Starting pitchers are cars cruising, relief pitchers are cars going full speed. You can set your car/pitcher to full speed (rp/cl) or cruising (sp). The bigger the gas tank, the more distance you get in the roles, but the total distance is always bigger in cruising and the speed higher in full speed. Tip: Though not stamina-related, a starter needs 3 solid pitches or a knuckleball (not! a knuckle curve) to be a good starter, with few exceptions. A knuckleball could be the only pitch and he's still a starter. If you want, I'll explain why. Was your observed pitcher a starter used as reliever or actually set as reliever? Last edited by Number4; 10-25-2015 at 03:57 AM.

10-25-2015, 11:32 AM	#7
TGH-Adfabre Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,599	I think my recollection is correct. The displayed change in Stuff is shown to the player but not used by the game engine. I think there is an adjustment for the familiarity of pitches. I do not think it has been explicitly explained. Because the increase in stuff is for the user and not the engine. It does not matter if a player is positioned at RP or SP. What matters is their usage. If they are used as a SP then their stamina and recovery will act as a SP and the same for a RP. What I do not think is modeled is what happens if the user moves the actual usage role back and forth either very quickly (1start and 3 relief appearances in 8 days) or repeatedly over the course of a season (58 appearances and 25 GS). These numbers are off the top of my head, they are not perfect, just a basic illustration. I think I read this from a beta tester or someone here that had put some time and energy into personally testing this. YMMV __________________ You mock me, therefore I am My wife

10-26-2015, 08:01 AM	#8
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	If you move a player, his rest status gets recalculated based on pitches thrown. So you can't cheat the system, though you might use a player f.ex. as reliever between starts. This should be only done on special occasions though - in real life, lackey threw game 4 of the 2013 WS as reliever, while 2 and 6 as starter. And though the way the game calculates it might be different, both in game and in RL, relievers throw better than starters. Last edited by Number4; 10-26-2015 at 08:04 AM.

10-25-2015, 02:00 AM	#2
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Don't do it. Relievers get more stuff, because they can give more effort during their shorter outings and therefore throw the ball harder. But they will not last enough innings as starters.

10-25-2015, 05:58 AM	#5
KingKronosDC84 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Madison,WI Posts: 21	yes please explain, every little bit of info helps.

10-25-2015, 06:22 AM	#6
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	As a starting pitcher pitches a lot of innings, batters face him a second or third time during the game. During every at bat, hitters "get used" to the pitcher, recognizing his delivery. So by the second and third time through the order, hitter performance improves. However, more pitches means also more differing deliveries to learn and this lessens this performance "penalty" for the pitcher. A reliever seldom faces more than 9 batters, so this isn't important to them, therefore you get many 2-pitch relievers. A knuckleballer is simply a different kind of pitcher and inherently unpredictable, so this rule does not apply to them.

10-26-2015, 09:00 AM	#10
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	They don't become better players, but the same player has better results, measured in let's say ERA, from the bullpen instead as a starter.

10-26-2015, 09:07 AM	#11
TGH-Adfabre Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,599	Ok __________________ You mock me, therefore I am My wife

10-26-2015, 10:04 PM	#12
KingKronosDC84 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Madison,WI Posts: 21	I'm in plenty of leagues where ever SP is set to RP and they've picked up 200 plus innings without problem. Thats why I wonder if theres really an advantage to them being set as SPs or not.

10-26-2015, 10:50 PM	#13
Izz Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2,467	I'm pretty sure if a reliever is used to start a game he doesn't get that stuff bonus. __________________ Not only do I play OOTP but I also write science-fiction: My Website A brief history of the Australia-New Zealand Baseball League (AUNZBL 2019-2119)--A Dynasty Report The National Penterham Four-Bases Association--A Dynasty Report

10-27-2015, 12:52 PM	#14
Reed All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,939	Yes, it seems like my relievers lost their "stuff" boost when I've had to use a reliever as a starter. I guess you could bring in a reliever (or another starter???) after one batter and have that "stuff" boost, but that would just be "cheating" the AI IMO.

10-27-2015, 02:08 PM	#15
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	It would only be cheating if he lasts 100 pitches, not 30. I think it is very unlikely that a pitcher gets both starting pitcher stamina bonus and reliever stuff bonus during the same outing.