Any easy way to trade minor leaguers?

Rex Dart · 11-28-2013, 07:08 PM

I seem to be able to develop lots more AAA-level position players than I need or can give playing time to. So I've got about 22 position players on my AAA roster.

I'd like to get rid of the lesser and/or older ones, but doing so is like pulling teeth. I try to do things like "I'll trade 3-4 guys with 23/80 ratings for...." I try to trade them for one semi-lively prospect, or even just one warm body who's not overage for his league. Inevitably, I get the "Let me think about it and get back to you" response, and equally inevitably, when they do get back to me, it's with a "NO WAY!" message (but they'll gladly accept my terms if I'm willing to throw in an All-Star or future Hall of Famer.) Maybe one time out of 15 they'll actually accept the trade, but the mechanics of just making all those offers is itself a pain in the ass.

Any tips on this type of roster management problem? I can just release them, of course, but it seems like a competent AAA organizational soldier should have SOME value.

Fyrestorm3 · 11-28-2013, 07:19 PM

What are your trade settings? Sounds like you might have them set to Favor Veterans.

le receveur · 11-28-2013, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

What are your trade settings? Sounds like you might have them set to Favor Veterans.

i get the same problem with favours prospects. it seems the AI does not really care to get AAAA players...

Lukas Berger · 11-28-2013, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

i get the same problem with favours prospects. it seems the AI does not really care to get AAAA players...

As it shouldn't. Those are the kind of guys you trade for each other or sign as minor league free agents, not trade decent prospects for.

le receveur · 11-28-2013, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

As it shouldn't. Those are the kind of guys you trade for each other or sign as minor league free agents, not trade decent prospects for.

who said anything about decent prospect... i can't trade them for a half star rookie league filler...and i'm talking about guys putting up 3+ WAR seasons in AAA, who could potentially be emergency call ups,,,

Lukas Berger · 11-28-2013, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

who said anything about decent prospect... i can't trade them for a half star rookie league filler...and i'm talking about guys putting up 3+ WAR seasons in AAA, who could potentially be emergency call ups,,,

Well, the OP said semi-lively prospect. Seems similar to decent to me.

But you're probably right in that the ai could place a bit more value on AAAA guys. The problem is that if they have any value to the ai, then some humans will exploit that by trading four or five of them for a good prospect.

So I think it's a tricky balance to get right. Overall I'd rather those kind of guys be undervalued by the ai than overvalued.

Rex Dart · 11-28-2013, 09:35 PM

I agree, it's probably better that the AI be a little resistant to this sort of deal, but just getting a warm body in exchange for multiple organizational soldier types shouldn't be incredibly difficult.

Either that, or just have some way of conveying information to the user along the lines of "We're not really interested in Player X at all, so stop trying to make us take him off your hands" would be good.

I don't necessarily mind the AI behavior so much as the fact that I spend more time trying to make these stupid pennies-on-the-dollar minor league trades than the ones I really care about.

(And by "semi-decent," that can mean as low as a random 21/21 guy in Single-A.)

le receveur · 11-28-2013, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Well, the OP said semi-lively prospect. Seems similar to decent to me.

But you're probably right in that the ai could place a bit more value on AAAA guys. The problem is that if they have any value to the ai, then some humans will exploit that by trading four or five of them for a good prospect.

So I think it's a tricky balance to get right. Overall I'd rather those kind of guys be undervalued by the ai than overvalued.

sorry, i missed that. and i agree the whole abuse angle i missed... i was just desperate to find pitching for my rookie league team (yes i know im not supposed to worry about the affiliates, but i do) and there was no way to acquire anything... and free agents were just Pending...
i have now let go one of my affiliates, to reduce number i need to maintain

Lukas Berger · 11-28-2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

sorry, i missed that. and i agree the whole abuse angle i missed... i was just desperate to find pitching for my rookie league team (yes i know im not supposed to worry about the affiliates, but i do) and there was no way to acquire anything... and free agents were just Pending...
i have now let go one of my affiliates, to reduce number i need to maintain

That stinks. I worry about the affiliates too, so I can feel your pain there.

Weren't there any young fa's available? In most of my leagues there's always a bunch of 18-21 year old warm bodies on the fa list. Some of them can even become decent if they get a talent boost.

Rex Dart · 11-29-2013, 12:44 PM

I think there's a problem with how the AI reacts to trade proposals that more or less boil down to "I want to give you something you don't value in exchange for something else you don't value." I've been playing around with this even more, going from careful evaluation of who I'm asking for to literally picking a low-rated name at random from a team's AA or A roster.

The default answer for such an offer seems to be "Let me get back to you" followed by "NO WAY! Not unless you throw in one of your top ten players!"

Almost like the AI rules followed operate something like this:

1. Offer Evaluation Part One: "Are the two sides of the deal roughly equal (after factoring in my team's needs, slider biases, etc.)?"

Presumably there's some calculation that boils the two sides down to a point value - "OK, it's 76 Value Points to me, and I'm giving away 70 Value Points. I'll make that deal." And if the sides are REALLY close, it triggers that "I'll get back to you" thing. This seems to work pretty well in most cases, but I think the deals we're talking about in this thread get evaluated as something like "Zero Value Points to me, Zero Value Points to you." So it's an "even deal," triggering the next step.

But I think that next step might be something like:

2. Offer Evaluation Part Two ("I'll get back to you"): "OK, the offer is even, but how much do I *need* what's being offered?" And the deals we're talking about fail that test, because X + 0 = X: the AI team isn't any better off making the trade.

Anyway, that's my current working hypothesis.

As an aside, the trading AI doesn't seem to assign much value to cash, so offers to sell a player for cash outright seldom seem to get accepted.

le receveur · 11-29-2013, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rex Dart

But I think that next step might be something like:

2. Offer Evaluation Part Two ("I'll get back to you"): "OK, the offer is even, but how much do I *need* what's being offered?" And the deals we're talking about fail that test, because X + 0 = X: the AI team isn't any better off making the trade.

Anyway, that's my current working hypothesis.

great way to sum it up. i would actually add the AI MAJOR LEAGUE team at this point in time isn't any better off making the trade.

so whereas i would acquire some AAAA catcher because i have no back-up going into August, and i am in the playoff race, the AI would not see value in that.

le receveur · 11-29-2013, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

That stinks. I worry about the affiliates too, so I can feel your pain there.

Weren't there any young fa's available? In most of my leagues there's always a bunch of 18-21 year old warm bodies on the fa list. Some of them can even become decent if they get a talent boost.

i had a bad draft where all the other teams only drafted pitchers, and my scout didn't like any of the one left (my scout seems to really like catchers, i had 7 catchers in my GCL team). the season was about to start, and i had 6 pitcher in Appalachian and 3 in GCL.... i made a bunch of offers to free agents, but they were all "thinking about it!" . i was tempted to for the fun of it, turn my catchers into pitcher and ditch the season :-)....

(i have since dump the development deal with the GCL Jays... they are now part of the Cubs org, as the Elephants in honour of Barnum),.,,, of course now i have to deal with fact i have too many bodies after the draft...

endgame · 11-29-2013, 02:17 PM

Point being, if I've read it all correctly, the AI remains a bit too focused on the Active Roster for its potential acquisitions, notwithstanding prospects at lower levels that are often ignored as well unless initiated by the user in the trade.

There should exist more likelihood for exchanges between two teams of minor leaguers only. It does happen, though rarely, where teams exchange needs at farm positions to bolster potential for future starters. However, trying to initiate this kind of trade is still very unlikely to produce counter-offers that do not include someone from your current group of starters. That's simply unrealistic at all difficulty levels.

We've room for improvement in that area.

11-28-2013, 07:08 PM	#1
Rex Dart Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 36	Any easy way to trade minor leaguers? I seem to be able to develop lots more AAA-level position players than I need or can give playing time to. So I've got about 22 position players on my AAA roster. I'd like to get rid of the lesser and/or older ones, but doing so is like pulling teeth. I try to do things like "I'll trade 3-4 guys with 23/80 ratings for...." I try to trade them for one semi-lively prospect, or even just one warm body who's not overage for his league. Inevitably, I get the "Let me think about it and get back to you" response, and equally inevitably, when they do get back to me, it's with a "NO WAY!" message (but they'll gladly accept my terms if I'm willing to throw in an All-Star or future Hall of Famer.) Maybe one time out of 15 they'll actually accept the trade, but the mechanics of just making all those offers is itself a pain in the ass. Any tips on this type of roster management problem? I can just release them, of course, but it seems like a competent AAA organizational soldier should have SOME value.

11-29-2013, 02:17 PM	#13
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,843	Point being, if I've read it all correctly, the AI remains a bit too focused on the Active Roster for its potential acquisitions, notwithstanding prospects at lower levels that are often ignored as well unless initiated by the user in the trade. There should exist more likelihood for exchanges between two teams of minor leaguers only. It does happen, though rarely, where teams exchange needs at farm positions to bolster potential for future starters. However, trying to initiate this kind of trade is still very unlikely to produce counter-offers that do not include someone from your current group of starters. That's simply unrealistic at all difficulty levels. We've room for improvement in that area. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

11-28-2013, 07:19 PM	#2
Fyrestorm3 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Massachusetts Posts: 2,928	What are your trade settings? Sounds like you might have them set to Favor Veterans.

11-28-2013, 09:35 PM	#7
Rex Dart Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 36	I agree, it's probably better that the AI be a little resistant to this sort of deal, but just getting a warm body in exchange for multiple organizational soldier types shouldn't be incredibly difficult. Either that, or just have some way of conveying information to the user along the lines of "We're not really interested in Player X at all, so stop trying to make us take him off your hands" would be good. I don't necessarily mind the AI behavior so much as the fact that I spend more time trying to make these stupid pennies-on-the-dollar minor league trades than the ones I really care about. (And by "semi-decent," that can mean as low as a random 21/21 guy in Single-A.)

11-29-2013, 12:44 PM	#10
Rex Dart Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 36	I think there's a problem with how the AI reacts to trade proposals that more or less boil down to "I want to give you something you don't value in exchange for something else you don't value." I've been playing around with this even more, going from careful evaluation of who I'm asking for to literally picking a low-rated name at random from a team's AA or A roster. The default answer for such an offer seems to be "Let me get back to you" followed by "NO WAY! Not unless you throw in one of your top ten players!" Almost like the AI rules followed operate something like this: 1. Offer Evaluation Part One: "Are the two sides of the deal roughly equal (after factoring in my team's needs, slider biases, etc.)?" Presumably there's some calculation that boils the two sides down to a point value - "OK, it's 76 Value Points to me, and I'm giving away 70 Value Points. I'll make that deal." And if the sides are REALLY close, it triggers that "I'll get back to you" thing. This seems to work pretty well in most cases, but I think the deals we're talking about in this thread get evaluated as something like "Zero Value Points to me, Zero Value Points to you." So it's an "even deal," triggering the next step. But I think that next step might be something like: 2. Offer Evaluation Part Two ("I'll get back to you"): "OK, the offer is even, but how much do I need what's being offered?" And the deals we're talking about fail that test, because X + 0 = X: the AI team isn't any better off making the trade. Anyway, that's my current working hypothesis. As an aside, the trading AI doesn't seem to assign much value to cash, so offers to sell a player for cash outright seldom seem to get accepted.