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Old 01-29-2013, 03:03 PM   #41
stannis
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As mentioned, stats aren't such a big factor in football, although it will be interesting to see whether the increasing use of them on TV drives a change in popular perception. People now discuss the number and percentage of passes Barcelona complete, for example, whereas but a few years ago that would never have been quantified.

Back on baseball, I would be interested in the feature as I like experimenting with league structures - but I wouldn't rate it, personally, as a high priority.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:16 PM   #42
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I sure would like it, but then again, i`m from the Netherlands, what do i know about "real" baseball? Right.
So what that you're Dutch? My late Dutch great uncle was a serious baseball aficionado. I have a Danish friend who knows as much about real baseball as I do, and a Belgian friend who knows more. The #1 MLB rules/history expert on this board is a Canadian, I know a lot about Association Football, and Markus is German.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 01-29-2013, 04:49 PM   #43
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It's not the "top clubs from first division" enter the premier League, the entire first division(after promotion/relegation of the last old first division season) became the premier league, the previous second division became the first, and so on.
I thought that a few clubs had not been included in the new EPL, but I must have confused that with the later reduced size of 20 teams after the EPL dropped a couple of clubs when FIFA wanted all the top levels to reduce to 18.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:33 PM   #44
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This is now hugely off topic, but I've always been interested in what would have happened if either 1) The Premier League was "stillborn", due to say continued hooliganism forcing sponsors / TV to out or 2) broke away completely as was suggested later on and became a "franchise" type system like the Rugby League Superleague. Or both.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:03 PM   #45
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So what that you're Dutch? My late Dutch great uncle was a serious baseball aficionado. I have a Danish friend who knows as much about real baseball as I do, and a Belgian friend who knows more. The #1 MLB rules/history expert on this board is a Canadian, I know a lot about Association Football, and Markus is German.
It`s all good..
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:04 PM   #46
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This is now hugely off topic, but I've always been interested in what would have happened if either 1) The Premier League was "stillborn", due to say continued hooliganism forcing sponsors / TV to out or 2) broke away completely as was suggested later on and became a "franchise" type system like the Rugby League Superleague. Or both.
That`s why i would like a soccer manager game similar to OOTP (and it`s customizability)..
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #47
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I felt this was obvious, but just to clarify guys- I am in no way opposed to the inclusion of Promotion/Relegation in OOTP. Quite the contrary, I think it has a great deal of value. Having said that, there are other going concerns that I believe warrant prioritization over it at this time.

Also, no need to start getting personal guys. We are all passionate about the Game and the game, let's make an effort to keep it civil.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:10 PM   #48
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I felt this was obvious, but just to clarify guys- I am in no way opposed to the inclusion of Promotion/Relegation in OOTP. Quite the contrary, I think it has a great deal of value. Having said that, there are other going concerns that I believe warrant prioritization over it at this time.

Also, no need to start getting personal guys. We are all passionate about the Game and the game, let's make an effort to keep it civil.
Good post, thanks man!
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:22 PM   #49
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Now, let's imagine that teams in the NL and AL could compete for the World Series, but they could also compete against top franchises from Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Japan, Korea, and other countries in a season-long professional team tournament. And then imagine that teams from all levels of baseball in the U.S. could compete in a season-long national tournament to crown a U.S. champion beyond just the World Series. Even a AAA or AA team could have a chance to shock everyone and win the U.S. title. This is similar to how club soccer competitions operate around the world, and amazingly there have been some lower level clubs that have won a national cup competition. It's rare, but it has happened.
This sounds like all sorts of fun to create in OOTP. Markus added League Associations in OOTP13 which start to get at the ability to create some of these concepts.

I like the idea of promotion/relegation, but you it's really not as simple as just adding code that moves teams around based on record. The question about an aging vet getting demoted and then demanding a trade is something that I doubt the AI would have any idea how to handle to people's satisfaction. I also don't think the financial environment is robust enough to respond appropriately to drastic and sudden changes in a team's expected revenue for the coming season. There really is a LOT of work that would need to be done to make it work to people's satisfaction and the manual option isn't all that difficult to make work.

In the meantime, maybe Markus can work more on some of the things that would be required in order to make it work and also benefit more traditional leagues. An improved financial model would be a natural place to start that everyone could take advantage of. Improved decision making AI would also be nice.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:26 PM   #50
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It is strikingly apparent that anybody suggesting just doing promotion/relegation manually has never attempted to do it before. There is no right way to do it, there are always big problems with finances and the AI, things that cannot or are insanely difficult to make work. Structurally it can be done but simply having the structure of a promotion/relegation league is nowhere near the actual real-life counterpart.

I've been playing OOTP since it's 4th version. I never play MLB leagues, always play fictional leagues and accordingly I am always looking for new ways to play the game. Since OOTP 6, there have been very few new ways to play the game - little has that mattered, I've still logged more time on this game than any other - From a fictional player standpoint, new ways to play the game should/are/must be the #1 new feature request, and it's something we haven't gotten in some time, in the case of promotion/relegation, it's something that's been asked for since the beginning of OOTP-time... I'd argue almost monthly for the past decade or so and absolutely EVERY time a new game is discussed.

There is no anger from me towards Marcus or the rest of the OOTP staff, you guys have done an incredible job year after year after year after year.... But my god I get on these boards more than ever before a new game is released hoping for some promotion/relegation news.... unfortunately (or fortunately) this hope was squashed very early on this year, but it won't stop me from hoping for it every single subsequent year.




That said, IF somebody could assemble a guide to making a highly functional promotion/relegation league work, I'd be pretty happy. I don't think it's possible though, as anybody attempting to make a promotion/relegation league will soon find out...
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:42 PM   #51
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It is strikingly apparent that anybody suggesting just doing promotion/relegation manually has never attempted to do it before. There is no right way to do it, there are always big problems with finances and the AI, things that cannot or are insanely difficult to make work. Structurally it can be done but simply having the structure of a promotion/relegation league is nowhere near the actual real-life counterpart.

I've been playing OOTP since it's 4th version. I never play MLB leagues, always play fictional leagues and accordingly I am always looking for new ways to play the game. Since OOTP 6, there have been very few new ways to play the game - little has that mattered, I've still logged more time on this game than any other - From a fictional player standpoint, new ways to play the game should/are/must be the #1 new feature request, and it's something we haven't gotten in some time, in the case of promotion/relegation, it's something that's been asked for since the beginning of OOTP-time... I'd argue almost monthly for the past decade or so and absolutely EVERY time a new game is discussed.

There is no anger from me towards Marcus or the rest of the OOTP staff, you guys have done an incredible job year after year after year after year.... But my god I get on these boards more than ever before a new game is released hoping for some promotion/relegation news.... unfortunately (or fortunately) this hope was squashed very early on this year, but it won't stop me from hoping for it every single subsequent year.




That said, IF somebody could assemble a guide to making a highly functional promotion/relegation league work, I'd be pretty happy. I don't think it's possible though, as anybody attempting to make a promotion/relegation league will soon find out...
I haven't seen him on these boards for quite some time, but I wonder if Cooleyvol could help you out. I think his online league uses promotion/relegation.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:23 PM   #52
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I haven't seen him on these boards for quite some time, but I wonder if Cooleyvol could help you out. I think his online league uses promotion/relegation.
I actually tried to look up his British Baseball Society earlier today and found that the site is no longer around. I don't know if that's because he folded it into another site or what, but he had a 3 tier promotion/relegation league going.

That said, I think it's a far more feasible concept in online leagues because the GM's are able to adjust. In solo play, AI GM's aren't coded for that. Ultimately, I think you can do some kinds of promotion/relegation, but it has to work within the confines of what the AI can handle, and you need to set your expectations appropriately.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:58 PM   #53
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I'm on the fence about buying OOTP14. Actually that's not true... I probably won't, largely because most of the new versions of OOTP haven't had enough significant changes to make it worthwhile. Full Nippon League stats and minor league tweaks and additions are nice, but won't make me buy a new version. A decent 2-d ingame graphics engine would make me shell out. And so would this.

Promotion/Relegation would by and large solve the eternal problem that most of us have where we can dominate the game unless we handcuff ourselves with house rules. Any team at the top of league 1 will be strong simply by elimination - a weak AI does not hurt the game so much. And no matter how good we are, it will take some time to bring a team up from the bottom of the pyramid and take it to the top.

And then you could have the equivalent of the FA Cup, where you can play different teams in the other leagues to try and win that kind of title there, too? Champions Leagues with other countries? What? I'd be all over that.

The game at this point isn't limited because it doesn't follow the rules of MLB. It is limited because the AI simply can't compete with the human player, and adding more management details, while nice, will only make the AI even more inferior relative to the human player. OOTP needs something that adds a different track to the game. If not this or a real graphics engine, then something equivalent that will be painful and a lot of work to develop but ultimately worthwhile.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:27 PM   #54
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I'm on the fence about buying OOTP14. Actually that's not true... I probably won't, largely because most of the new versions of OOTP haven't had enough significant changes to make it worthwhile. Full Nippon League stats and minor league tweaks and additions are nice, but won't make me buy a new version. A decent 2-d ingame graphics engine would make me shell out. And so would this.
This is good feedback for Markus and the marketing team. While not everyone has the same perspective, it's good for them to know why certain customers feel the changes aren't significant enough to want to pay for an update, and specifically what features would cause them to do so. If Markus added promotion/relegation and a 2-D game engine in OOTP15, what would then convince you beyond that to buy OOTP16? I don't ask this snarkily, I'm genuinely interested.

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Promotion/Relegation would by and large solve the eternal problem that most of us have where we can dominate the game unless we handcuff ourselves with house rules. Any team at the top of league 1 will be strong simply by elimination - a weak AI does not hurt the game so much. And no matter how good we are, it will take some time to bring a team up from the bottom of the pyramid and take it to the top.
Have you tried this with the current version manually? Did it make it harder to dominate the game?

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And then you could have the equivalent of the FA Cup, where you can play different teams in the other leagues to try and win that kind of title there, too? Champions Leagues with other countries? What? I'd be all over that.
Have you tried League Associations? They could be fleshed out a little more, but you can already hold tournaments between leagues using this feature in OOTP13.

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The game at this point isn't limited because it doesn't follow the rules of MLB. It is limited because the AI simply can't compete with the human player, and adding more management details, while nice, will only make the AI even more inferior relative to the human player. OOTP needs something that adds a different track to the game. If not this or a real graphics engine, then something equivalent that will be painful and a lot of work to develop but ultimately worthwhile.
I agree that there aren't a lot of little fixes that would really make users go, "Wow, I want to buy the game for that cool fix!" Most of those types of features are probably larger items like these. That said, your concern about the AI, I expect, will only be exacerbated if promotion/relegation are added unless a lot of work is done to make sure the AI understands that type of league environment.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #55
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If Markus added promotion/relegation and a 2-D game engine in OOTP15, what would then convince you beyond that to buy OOTP16? I don't ask this snarkily, I'm genuinely interested.
Well, you could have that concern about any major improvement in any game, right? But Markus can't reasonably say, 'Well, if I make the game too good, people won't want to buy any more improvements'. If you were to ask me in 1992 what a perfect computer baseball simulation would look like, I'd probably have described something similar to OOTP8, and I'd have believed I'd never ask for more. Standards and expectations change - especially in video games.

Truthfully, if both those things were added to OOTP 15 (we both know they won't), I'd probably be content with that for the next 2-3 years unless some other major improvement (which I can't specifically think of right now) were made in 16. The level of improvement I'd need to see in order to buy the next incremental version wouldn't change. Perhaps player/press interaction and personality improvement. I'll think about that if/when the time comes.

I don't see how the AI problems would be exacerbated. In a current setup, you've got 30 franchises which are all poorly run by the AI (at least poorly run as compared to what human players would do), and you play against them all. In a promotion/relegation setup you might have, say, 4 tiers of 10 teams that are all still poorly run by the AI. The difference is, assuming you're on the top rung, you're only playing against the very best teams that the AI has been able to assemble and therefore playing in a much more competitive environment.

Like Poweshow, I've tried different things manually for years (not always promotion/relegation but different league setup ideas as they strike me) but it's never quite what I'm looking for. The game is hardwired to play a certain way IMO. The further away you get from a vanilla setup, something that hasn't specifically been coded for, the more problems you are going to run into.

Regardless, I'm just looking for something to jump out at me and make me say, wow... that's going to enhance my experience a lot. I've got to try this. Otherwise, it's more reasonable from my POV just to buy a version every 3 years when all of the minor adjustments have added up.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:46 PM   #56
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I might be wrong, but it seems the financial system in the game does not lend itself to the promotion/relegation format. It would work with a buy/sell/loan transfer system, which if it's anything like FM, it'd be even easier to dominate. An FA Cup-like tournament would be a good addition, though.

I'd prefer a working round robin and improved regions over promotion/relegation.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:43 AM   #57
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I would like a 2d engine, I know eye candy but it would add to the immersion at least for me, and some sort of 3d stadium builder sub-game type thingy. And finally the AI to consider your stadiums in an appropiate manner both how they affect park factors and finances.

Would like that promotion/relegation feature as well.
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #58
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I would like a 2d engine, I know eye candy but it would add to the immersion at least for me, and some sort of 3d stadium builder sub-game type thingy. And finally the AI to consider your stadiums in an appropiate manner both how they affect park factors and finances.
This is also quite high on my list. Simple ballpark graphics would be fine, so long as it was possible to see the field dimensions. It would also be really nice to see the amount of foul territory accounted for.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:04 PM   #59
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I would like a 2d engine, I know eye candy but it would add to the immersion at least for me, and some sort of 3d stadium builder sub-game type thingy.
This is one of the things that many people have underestimated in its value for immersion and also in improving the realism of the game. When graphics were added to Football Manager, it suddenly allowed the human user to see how the nuts and bolts of the game engine were playing out. You could see a player's weaknesses and strengths unfold on the field and see exactly which attributes are causing problems or creating benefits, just like a real life manager can. For example, in OOTP, it would mean that could see that your left fielder struggles more than you thought to get to balls hit in the gap. It also allows the user to visually see how his strategies are affecting the game engine outcomes. This really unlocked game strategy for a lot of users, and things suddenly made a lot more sense compared to the play-by-play descriptions.

Ultimately, it's like playing OOTP with stats only. You could turn off the ratings and rely entirely on your scouts and your own two eyes in evaluating players. You will even be able to start seeing if your scout is wrong, rather than just waiting for the stats to prove it over the long haul. This is an exact replication of real life, and I think this is something that is often lost in the debate over graphics.

So, if OOTP can head in this same direction and create a visualization of the game engine, then there are a lot of potential benefits beyond the mere fact that there are graphics. It can potentially serve as a huge advancement in realism, user experience, immersion, and an understanding of the nuts-and-bolts parts of the game.

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Old 02-02-2013, 10:12 AM   #60
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Just a quick additional comment back on the original topic. I am a fictional player who has been hoping for promotion/relegation for some time. As with some of the previous posters my goal would be to try out models which are different than MLB.

At the same time, I do understand the challenges of making such a significant change in the coding and I would prioritize things like a 2D graphics engine over promotion/relegation.
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