Promotion/Relegation?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by deanemj

I think automatic promotion/relegation should be the TOP priority for the next OOTP.(

And more of us would rank it at the bottom. Just do it manually.

[Pdubya64]

All else being equal, I can't back prioritizing an item that can be made to work manually (albeit PITA) over a handful of features that really capture a big part of what makes Baseball special.

Just thinking about OOTP with fully functional Spring Training and Fall Leagues gets me all giddy...

[mm7607]

Originally Posted by deanemj

I do. I think automatic promotion/relegation should be the TOP priority for the next OOTP. I know I can't be the only one who enjoys creating a fantasy baseball world.

To me, automatic promotion/relegation is the top feature request. I know I'm not the only one.

The MLB stuff in itself is relatively unimportant to me. I rarely play with real world settings. I realize that the overwhelming majority of players do play with the MLB setup and that's fine, but there are other types of players who prefer their own customized leagues and we desperately want this feature added. I must admit that I'm very disappointed that this has been passed over yet again.

There's always next year, I guess.

I'm in a little agreement here except automatic promotion/relegation isn't that big of a priority. I never play real teams or real players. So anything that enhances the fictional aspects of the game is whats important to me.

I would rather see any recoding or extra coding go towards a real record book with team records. So far I don't see anything on the feature list so I hope the list we see isn't complete.

[Brick]

Are there any good threads outlining how people do promotion/relegation manually? I know about re-arranging the leagues before spring training. I also know some leagues imposed fan interest bonuses/penalties for promotion/relegation but those leagues don't seem to be active online.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Brick

Are there any good threads outlining how people do promotion/relegation manually? I know about re-arranging the leagues before spring training. I also know some leagues imposed fan interest bonuses/penalties for promotion/relegation but those leagues don't seem to be active online.

The last one I saw cut all fan factors in half on relegation and doubled them on promotion and set ticket prices down or up to match the new league's level. But there's lots of different ways you could do it.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

This is why the changes i suggested should come first. This is a MLB baseball sim first.

Umm, not it's not. Hell, by the company's own description, "Out of the Park Baseball ("OOTP") is the most sophisticated and best-selling baseball simulation game on the planet". Nowhere in there does it say it's an MLB sim. Just because you prefer to play an MLB style game doesn't mean everyone else, or even the majority, does. I'd guess the split would be about 40/40/20 for MLB/fictional/historical for the most liked style of play by OOTP players.

[Charlie Hough]

I don't really have a personal preference in this debate because I would never use a promotion/relegation option. Although I've often thought that, in real life, this would be an interesting way to handle small-market teams in MLB and larger market teams in AAA. Just imagine the Royals or Pirates being relegated while a AAA team from Indianapolis or Portland could get into the big leagues. But the main problem would be stadium capacity issues and the quality of facilities.

But I will say that there seem to be quite a few OOTP customers who are from Europe and other countries where promotion/relegation is the norm. And it seems like we keep seeing more of them joining the forums all the time. It seems like a fairly sizable portion of the customer base, although I'm sure it's no more than 10% (if that).

In the interest of serving those customers and continuing the outreach to non-traditional baseball markets, it's not a bad idea to add promotion and relegation. It adds an additional layer of customization, and it might even help some people get more interested in the game and in baseball more generally.

But obviously this isn't a top priority for the developers at the moment, so we would have to wait until OOTP 15 at best.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

Umm, not it's not. Hell, by the company's own description, "Out of the Park Baseball ("OOTP") is the most sophisticated and best-selling baseball simulation game on the planet". Nowhere in there does it say it's an MLB sim. Just because you prefer to play an MLB style game doesn't mean everyone else, or even the majority, does. I'd guess the split would be about 40/40/20 for MLB/fictional/historical for the most liked style of play by OOTP players.

Let's assume those numbers are true, even though I think it totally overestimates the fantasy crowd by a factor of two. That means 60% of players can use better MLB features.

Of your alleged forty percent fantasy players, less than 10% of them will use promotion/relegation, which amounts to around, maybe, 4% of the players. Probably in reality it's closer to 1%.

Versus 60% for MLB features. That's at least fifteen to one, and more likely thirty to sixty to one, in favor of MLB features.

Pdubya64 is correct.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

Umm, not it's not. Hell, by the company's own description, "Out of the Park Baseball ("OOTP") is the most sophisticated and best-selling baseball simulation game on the planet". Nowhere in there does it say it's an MLB sim. Just because you prefer to play an MLB style game doesn't mean everyone else, or even the majority, does. I'd guess the split would be about 40/40/20 for MLB/fictional/historical for the most liked style of play by OOTP players.

It's a MLB sim first because what is the Major quickstart included with the game? It's not a European league that uses promotion/relegation, It's the MLB that gets updated every year and has so much work put into it.
It is the "major" league for the world.

There are even other league formats that should come after MLB that should be a priority over promotion/relegation as well.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

But the main problem would be stadium capacity issues and the quality of facilities.

Financials and player development would also be important issues for promotion/relegation.

Promotion/relegation is one of those alternatives such as restricted and unrestricted free agency or the NFL's 'franchise player' rule that would offer interesting twists on how to set up a league and general manage a club. It opens up new game play possibilities. From that perspective such things are worth pursuing at some point.

The question is the priority. On that front pretty much everyone will have a different opinion.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Let's assume those numbers are true, even though I think it totally overestimates the fantasy crowd by a factor of two. That means 60% of players can use better MLB features.

Of your alleged forty percent fantasy players, less than 10% of them will use promotion/relegation, which amounts to around, maybe, 4% of the players. Probably in reality it's closer to 1%.

Versus 60% for MLB features. That's at least fifteen to one, and more likely thirty to sixty to one, in favor of MLB features.

Pdubya64 is correct.

Let's assume your numbers are right. That's the percentage of players who do that right now. That may or may not be the breakdown of an expanded number of players who would play the game under another configuration with additional features.

I'm not going to suggest that promotion/relegation would bring in anything more than a trivial number of new customers. But Markus is probably prioritizing things not by how current customers use the game so much as he is by what will bring in new business.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Let's assume your numbers are right. That's the percentage of players who do that right now. That may or may not be the breakdown of an expanded number of players who would play the game under another configuration with additional features.

I'm not going to suggest that promotion/relegation would bring in anything more than a trivial number of new customers. But Markus is probably prioritizing things not by how current customers use the game so much as he is by what will bring in new business.

Only a trivial number of people even care about promotion/relegation in baseball. No significant baseball league uses it or ever has used it (yes, LGO, I know about the totally insignificant exceptions). It would require extensive rewrites, time and effort that could be devoted instead to improving features that many people use on a daily basis. You can do promotion/relegation manually if you are so inclined. It would bring in essentially zero new customers.

It's essentially the definition of a bad idea.

[Hageneezz]

I sure would like it, but then again, i`m from the Netherlands, what do i know about "real" baseball? Right.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Hageneezz

I sure would like it, but then again, i`m from the Netherlands, what do i know about "real" baseball? Right.

As someone that isn't a soccer fan and knows absolutely nothing about this promotion/relegation stuff can I ask a dumb question? Let's say a really bad team trades for a aging vet that is a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron type player. This player is on pace to break the all time home run record. However, the team finishes dead last and gets booted from the league. What happens to this player? Does his chance to become the all time home run king go down the drain unless the team trades or releases him? Will the home runs he hits in the lower league count? Again, I know these are probably really dumb questions, but humor me

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by David Watts

As someone that isn't a soccer fan and knows absolutely nothing about this promotion/relegation stuff can I ask a dumb question? Let's say a really bad team trades for a aging vet that is a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron type player. This player is on pace to break the all time home run record. However, the team finishes dead last and gets booted from the league. What happens to this player? Does his chance to become the all time home run king go down the drain unless the team trades or releases him? Will the home runs he hits in the lower league count? Again, I know these are probably really dumb questions, but humor me

In the real soccer world, this particular player would most likely asks to be shopped/trade to a team that is still in the top league, which a team would usually do since been relegated really hurts the team financially

[Hageneezz]

Originally Posted by David Watts

As someone that isn't a soccer fan and knows absolutely nothing about this promotion/relegation stuff can I ask a dumb question? Let's say a really bad team trades for a aging vet that is a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron type player. This player is on pace to break the all time home run record. However, the team finishes dead last and gets booted from the league. What happens to this player? Does his chance to become the all time home run king go down the drain unless the team trades or releases him? Will the home runs he hits in the lower league count? Again, I know these are probably really dumb questions, but humor me

Interesting question, this player would indeed not break the homerun record if he is playing for a team outside the top division. But if this player would really want to break the record (who wouldnt), the player would be traded/transferred to another team as he clearly would not be motivated enough to be of value for the lower division team..

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

It's a MLB sim first because what is the Major quickstart included with the game? It's not a European league that uses promotion/relegation, It's the MLB that gets updated every year and has so much work put into it.
It is the "major" league for the world.

There are even other league formats that should come after MLB that should be a priority over promotion/relegation as well.

I'm not arguing in favor of promotion/relegation, as Markus has already stated it'd be a lot of work and the reward wouldn't be too great since it can be done to a solid effect already. Rather, I'm arguing that OOTP's not an MLB sim, because it's not. To say it is because they update their MLB QuickStart every year is just silly. Obviously they're going to keep their QuickStart for the world's most popular league up to date. But tell me, why do we have the option to trade draft picks? Or to not have scouting? Or to have a salary cap? These have never happened in the MLB, so why would they be options in an MLB sim? For them to tailor everything to the MLB crowd would severely limit the game (and I still legitimately believe that most people on this forum underestimate the amount of fictional players in OOTP, but that's neither here nor there).

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by David Watts

As someone that isn't a soccer fan and knows absolutely nothing about this promotion/relegation stuff can I ask a dumb question? Let's say a really bad team trades for a aging vet that is a Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron type player. This player is on pace to break the all time home run record. However, the team finishes dead last and gets booted from the league. What happens to this player? Does his chance to become the all time home run king go down the drain unless the team trades or releases him? Will the home runs he hits in the lower league count? Again, I know these are probably really dumb questions, but humor me

Soccer clubs, players, and fans are not obsessed with statistics in the way that you see in baseball. Player statistics are quite limited in scope, although there are advanced statistics these days that are tracked by broadcast networks and other sources.

But the focus is entirely on the game itself and on winning championships and honors, not on statistical output.

There are league and club records for goals and caps (starts), which are considered the most important. But league structures and promotions/relegations have changed so much over the decades that the concept of "major league" records is almost non-existent.

For example, England's First Division was the top level of soccer in that country for decades. But when the English Premier League formed in 1992, all the First Division history ceased to have much significance. This created a new top level of competition and the old First Division became a lesser one in which the old records ceased to have much meaning. The clubs that had been in the Second Division became those in the new First Division.

Imagine if the top teams in the NL and AL formed a new league called the United League or something similar. And imagine that they left the rest of the teams or moved up the AAA teams to be in the old NL and AL. Then everything else would shuffle accordingly. This is similar to what happened in England.

Similar dramatic changes have occurred in other countries as well, such as Germany. There, the league systems have changed multiple times, especially due to World War II and the temporary suspension of all club soccer activities under the Third Reich. Club competition was later restarted, and new league structures were created, but it was all reshuffled and resctructured again after the war. A fully unified system was not really developed until 1963, when the top level Bundesliga was created. But that was in West Germany, whereas there was a separate league system in East Germany. When the two countries reunited, this meant a dramatic restructuring yet again.

So, in Germany, like many other countries, the changing landscape of leagues and promotion/relegation has meant that the emphasis has been on winning championships and trophies rather than compiling statistics. And the fact that clubs can compete for league championships, national tournament championships, and continental championships means that there is a greater emphasis on winning titles than accruing stats. There is more to play for than one title and your own statistics.

Now, let's imagine that teams in the NL and AL could compete for the World Series, but they could also compete against top franchises from Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Japan, Korea, and other countries in a season-long professional team tournament. And then imagine that teams from all levels of baseball in the U.S. could compete in a season-long national tournament to crown a U.S. champion beyond just the World Series. Even a AAA or AA team could have a chance to shock everyone and win the U.S. title. This is similar to how club soccer competitions operate around the world, and amazingly there have been some lower level clubs that have won a national cup competition. It's rare, but it has happened.

EDIT: I corrected this post to more accurately reflect what happened with the creation of the EPL.

[byzeil]

No real horse in the relegation discussion but there was a poll back in OOTP12 that points towards a lot more fictional players than some seem to think.

[tomwolf2008]

Actually above mention of the Premier League in England is slightly off, the Premier League is formed more because of it will generate more revenue rather than from a competitive standpoint. Premier League technically doesn't have ties with FA anymore. It's not the "top clubs from first division" enter the premier League, the entire first division(after promotion/relegation of the last old first division season) became the premier league, the previous second division became the first, and so on.

But, as he said, it's true that soccer statistics for individual player is not as significant as in baseball, especially since there are some performances criteria is hard to use stats to define to begin with.