Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 25 Available - FHM 10 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 25 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Franchise Hockey Manager 2 > FHM 2 - General Discussions

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-24-2015, 01:20 AM   #1
Cole
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Posts: 2,685
What if Bobby Orr Stayed Healthy? FHM 2's Historical Mode Allows You to Recreate And Rewrite History

Our new blog is live here, check it out:

What if Bobby Orr Stayed Healthy? FHM 2?s Historical Mode Allows You to Recreate and Rewrite History
Cole is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 06:29 AM   #2
scootermojo
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 125
OUTSTANDING!!! Great to see FHM2 take into account offensive d-men like Orr much more accurately.

Oh...just an FYI: the real life numbers for Orr in the blog are added up incorrectly. Orr had 270 goals, 645 assists and 915 points. It looks to me you only added up his years in Boston and forgot to add on his final two seasons in Chicago
scootermojo is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 08:34 AM   #3
Tiger Fan
Hall Of Famer
 
Tiger Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootermojo View Post
Oh...just an FYI: the real life numbers for Orr in the blog are added up incorrectly. Orr had 270 goals, 645 assists and 915 points. It looks to me you only added up his years in Boston and forgot to add on his final two seasons in Chicago
That is exactly what I did. I copied and pasted his career totals off of hockey-reference.com and used the Boston career numbers instead of full career. My apologies.
Tiger Fan is online now  
Old 08-24-2015, 08:49 AM   #4
G-Nuke
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 198
While the game engine seems better at handling things like offensive defensemen, I see that the "historical research" is as awful as ever. Orr's penalty minutes are still at Lady Bing levels... this needs serious work guys.
G-Nuke is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 09:42 AM   #5
Smetana
All Star Starter
 
Smetana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 1,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
While the game engine seems better at handling things like offensive defensemen, I see that the "historical research" is as awful as ever. Orr's penalty minutes are still at Lady Bing levels... this needs serious work guys.
While I think it's a bit rude to say the historical research is "awful", your point is a good one. I know the historical data, and the engine itself, are still being tweaked in lots of areas, and is not a final product.
__________________
Franchise Hockey Manager - NHL Researcher
Smetana is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 12:19 PM   #6
Cole
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Posts: 2,685
Tiger Fan also mentioned to me that others that ran through this sim did in fact have PIM totals VERY close to their real life, so this could simply be a case of needing to adjust a couple of Orr's ratings, as opposed to "awful" historical research, which as Smetana said, is not really fair to say.
Cole is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 01:02 PM   #7
sprague
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
Tiger Fan also mentioned to me that others that ran through this sim did in fact have PIM totals VERY close to their real life, so this could simply be a case of needing to adjust a couple of Orr's ratings, as opposed to "awful" historical research, which as Smetana said, is not really fair to say.
Can someone then post their 70,s replay with totals for Schultz Williams polonich DuPont. And if possible impact their presence may have had with those teams. Did their penalty minutes have a value beyond just some numbers at the end of a season.

Also in such replay what sort of high pim numbers for a game arose. Any near or over 200
sprague is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 01:23 PM   #8
Tiger Fan
Hall Of Famer
 
Tiger Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,517
There were a number of players that I checked that had very realistic penalty minute totals. In fact, one of the screenshots that is posted is a great example. Look at Gordie Howe's results. In the sim he had 1649 career pim's in 1645 career games. In real life NHL totals (excluding WHA) 1685 career penalty minutes in 1767 career games.

To look at one stat for one player and call the game results 'awful' is in my mind a very foolish and ill-informed post. The comment itself is made even less meaningful when one considers I mentioned right from the start this write-up was done as a "What if?" scenario.

I used the FHM development engine option to have players career progression have some variance from real-life. OOTP historical players will know quite well that the historical game can be played different ways and I believe FHM is trying to give historical users similar options.

If you use recalculate ratings based on real life each season you would expect results much more like real life each year for a player. In this case I used the development engine as the whole point of the article was to see what could have happened if Orr had two good knees and a longer career. Perhaps if I resimmed it again he would have 1400 penalty minutes and then the complaint would be the totals are too high.

I will make one more quick comment from the same sim. Tiger Williams is still active when I stopped the sim after the 85-86 season and he had 3144 career penalty minutes in 840 games which is putting him pretty close to his real life totals of 3996 in 962 games. He had several seasons with over 300 minutes.

The single season penalty minute leader is Nick Fotiu, who had 400 in 1978-79. In real life the most he ever had was 190 that same season. Therefore using your logic the game is awful because the penalty minute totals for Fotiu are way too high.

Which you don't take into account is the development engine as well as the fact in 78-79 in my sim Fotiu was on a mediocre Atlanta Flames team and playing more than I expect he did with the real life Rangers that season.

As Smetana states the game still is being tweaked but the numbers at this stage are certainly not awful.
Tiger Fan is online now  
Old 08-24-2015, 03:16 PM   #9
sprague
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,910
Tiger

Thanks for sharing your above post.
It is very helpful.
sprague is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 05:02 PM   #10
ThatSeventiesGuy
Hall Of Famer
 
ThatSeventiesGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midland, MI
Posts: 3,421
Didn't see any WHA in those posts...please tell me WHA is in historical...I wanna recreate the Indianapolis Racers.
ThatSeventiesGuy is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 05:39 PM   #11
Cole
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy View Post
Didn't see any WHA in those posts...please tell me WHA is in historical...I wanna recreate the Indianapolis Racers.
Yes, WHA is included.
Cole is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 07:20 PM   #12
Nino33
Major Leagues
 
Nino33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 320
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but the NHL career goaltending numbers seem off...

The best average was Plante at 2.42, and then Dryden at 2.47.....are these supposed to be single season or career?

Either way there were many goalies with career/single season averages below the numbers shown (if it's showing career then it seems the data is missing for players like Tiny Thompson, Roy Watters, Gerry McNeil, Bill Durnan and others.....and if it's showing single season then it's a lot higher than IRL, where a number of goalies had seasons where their GAA was under 2.00)

The other thing I noticed was save percentage leaders, showing Fuhr as the best at 0.908 and then Bannerman/Resch at 0.904.....the top goaltenders of the past had similar save percentages to current goaltenders Save Percentage in the NHL ? EHM The Blue Line - for example, Lumley/Plante/Sawchuk at 0.929/0.926/0.926 in 1954-55...and the top goaltenders in the 1970s had similar numbers, in fact Plante's 0.942 in 1970-71 was the best ever single season save percentage)


I also noticed the goals scored per game seems a little high in the sim...IRL from 1966-1976 scoring ranged from 5.90 to 6.85 NHL Average Goals per Game while in the test sim the average 6.90 to 7.43.....the lowest scoring season in the sim was higher than the highest scoring season IRL)


EDIT - I received a PM about the source of the save percentage data, and I thought I'd post the answer here too...the data that is available has been available since 2001, published in "The Hockey Compendium" by Klein & Reif. Someone named Edward Yuen compiled complete NHL SV% data that covered 1954-1967 as well as a few seasons in the 70s (thank you Edward Yuen!)...the answer to how they got the data is "manually compile it" by looking at individual scoresheets...I think the Hockey Summary Project was likely used (Hockey Summary Project - All Time Game Scores & Results you can select team/season and see individual/game stats from the individual games)

Last edited by Nino33; 08-24-2015 at 10:06 PM.
Nino33 is offline  
Old 08-24-2015, 07:53 PM   #13
Nino33
Major Leagues
 
Nino33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Fan View Post
To look at one stat for one player and call the game results 'awful' is in my mind a very foolish and ill-informed post.
While I agree "awful" isn't the best choice of words, I thought FHM supporters would be more accepting of the use of hyperbole




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Fan View Post
The comment itself is made even less meaningful when one considers I mentioned right from the start this write-up was done as a "What if?" scenario.

I used the FHM development engine option to have players career progression have some variance from real-life. OOTP historical players will know quite well that the historical game can be played different ways and I believe FHM is trying to give historical users similar options.

If you use recalculate ratings based on real life each season you would expect results much more like real life each year for a player. In this case I used the development engine as the whole point of the article was to see what could have happened if Orr had two good knees and a longer career.
It seems he's playing in a league that's higher scoring with weaker goalies (which if true would make the results less meaningful)
Nino33 is offline  
Old 08-25-2015, 02:17 AM   #14
scootermojo
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 125
I just noticed something looking at the simmed career of Bobby Orr......what happened during the 1970-71 and 1971-72 seasons? There's no stats for him for those years. Was he injured for two whole seasons? His career skips directly from the 1969-70 season to the 1972-73 season. Those are some primes seasons of his youth on this sim....smack in the middle of his five straight 100 point seasons. He finished the sim with 1300 points so he'd probably be up around 1500 if he played those two missing seasons.
scootermojo is offline  
Old 08-25-2015, 07:17 AM   #15
Smetana
All Star Starter
 
Smetana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 1,064
.
__________________
Franchise Hockey Manager - NHL Researcher

Last edited by Smetana; 08-25-2015 at 09:46 AM. Reason: Never mind.
Smetana is offline  
Old 08-25-2015, 10:56 AM   #16
sprague
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootermojo View Post
I just noticed something looking at the simmed career of Bobby Orr......what happened during the 1970-71 and 1971-72 seasons? There's no stats for him for those years. Was he injured for two whole seasons? His career skips directly from the 1969-70 season to the 1972-73 season. Those are some primes seasons of his youth on this sim....smack in the middle of his five straight 100 point seasons. He finished the sim with 1300 points so he'd probably be up around 1500 if he played those two missing seasons.
Good question.

Why is Orr missing the years 1971 1972 in his career list?
sprague is offline  
Old 08-25-2015, 07:22 PM   #17
Nino33
Major Leagues
 
Nino33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 320
The goals scored, save percentage and PIM totals all seem "understandable" to me (work-in-progress).....but the missing Orr seasons seems odd
Nino33 is offline  
Old 08-25-2015, 07:49 PM   #18
G-Nuke
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smetana View Post
While I think it's a bit rude to say the historical research is "awful", your point is a good one. I know the historical data, and the engine itself, are still being tweaked in lots of areas, and is not a final product.
In FHM1 it was embarrassingly bad. Bobby Orr had his aggression rated lower than Wayne Gretzky, and it looks like it hasn't improved based on the sample above. I'm not going to relist all the issues over again.


Since this is being shown as an example of statistical accuracy in FHM2 historical, I have to assume this is the best there is to offer, in which case I stand by my statement... they are a long ways off...

Last edited by G-Nuke; 08-25-2015 at 07:50 PM.
G-Nuke is offline  
Old 08-25-2015, 07:54 PM   #19
Le Grande Orange
Hall Of Famer
 
Le Grande Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Up There
Posts: 15,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
Yes, WHA is included.
Speaking of which, how do you handle the 1975-76, 1976-77, and 1978-79 seasons which had clubs folding during the season? (Side note: have you the original WHA schedules for those seasons? I tried to dig those up but only could find the schedules as they were played, which naturally include the revisions made after some clubs folded.)

Also, what about the 1977-78 season which had the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia all-star teams playing against the WHA clubs as part of the regular season?
Le Grande Orange is offline  
Old 08-26-2015, 12:01 AM   #20
Tiger Fan
Hall Of Famer
 
Tiger Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
In FHM1 it was embarrassingly bad. Bobby Orr had his aggression rated lower than Wayne Gretzky, and it looks like it hasn't improved based on the sample above. I'm not going to relist all the issues over again.


Since this is being shown as an example of statistical accuracy in FHM2 historical, I have to assume this is the best there is to offer, in which case I stand by my statement... they are a long ways off...
Seriously, do you just have a hate on for the game or one of the developers or what? Just where did it state in the blog that this was to be the model example of statistical accuracy?

Read this paragraph again please:

I also used the FHM development engine for the career development instead of recalculating ratings each season – an option that would give more realistic historical results. But in this sim it is the “what if” I am looking to see, instead of trying to real closely mirror the “what really happened.” (Editor’s note: Also new in historical mode this year is the ability to have the FHM development engine take over once the game begins, meaning that you could see greater departures from how things turned out in real life as a game progresses.There is still the option to recalculate ratings each year, which is optimal for those who prefer their historical replays to be more true to life)


The goal of the sim I wrote about was to have an alternative history of sorts for Orr. In the blog I didcompare his numbers and some others to their real-life counterparts but complete statistical accuracy was not the goal as it would defeat the purpose of what I wanted to accomplish. I wanted a believable career for Orr which means he is the dominant offensive defenseman of his era (if not all time) and the hope was he would stay healthy. The goal was not to have him end up with the exact same games played, points and penalty minutes that he amassed in real life.

A long time ago I did some testing in the early versions of OOTP (2-3-4) when Markus was working on refining historical replays. It took a number of versions to get things close to realistic. In the early version there were many weird things that happened in historical play - my avatar is of a player named Cliff Markle, who won something like 20 major league games in the 1920's in real-life....but in one of my sims Markle had a lifetime record of 360-160 with 9 Cy Young Awards and 11 world series titles.

Did I delete the game from my computer and call it OOTP awful because it allowed Markle to post such unrealistic numbers? No, OOTP was a work in progress and the options for historical players have improved so much...but it took over 10 years to get there.

And because of those early versions of historical simming and the occasional surprise player like Markle, I learned so much about many different players who I would have never heard of had it not been for OOTP. Frank Snook is another name who in OOTP replay many years ago became a star. Look him up if you like. I did and as a result greatly enhanced my knowledge of him and many other footnotes in baseball history. So those surprise players enjoying a great career in one replay is something that adds so much to the experience of historical replays.

I have no issue with the occasional Al Hill, Dennis Abgrall or Roy Giesebrecht becoming a star in one of my future FHM replays. As long as most of the players perform relatively close to real life and the game stats feel right then I would be very happy with my investment in purchasing the game.....just as I was with Cliff Markle being an OOTP3 star in 1 sim.

FHM is, in my opinion, miles ahead of where OOTP was on historical play in it's second version. Is it going to yield perfect results for every player. No, of course not. Nor would I want it to. OOTP would be pretty boring for historical play if every player exactly duplicated his real-life stats.

If I had used the recalculate ratings each season based on real life numbers the results would have been different, probably more accurate for Orr but there is a bit of chance involved in every replay. However, that was not what I was going for. I wanted a what if scenario for Orr which meant I did not want him to perfectly duplicate his real life numbers.

Last edited by Tiger Fan; 08-26-2015 at 01:11 AM.
Tiger Fan is online now  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:08 PM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2020 Out of the Park Developments