Position Rating Drop

D-BacksJosh · 04-22-2018, 02:52 PM

I think this has been brought up somewhere already. I use a 2-8 scale. In the off-season I signed this guy to take over duties at 2nd mostly because of his position rating there. He was ranked as a 7 all through spring training, but at the start of the season all of the sudden he forgot how to play altogether. I can understand a ratings drop with age, but not that severe. Had this happen to my 3rd baseman the previous season also, and I traded him thinking it was just a rare occurrence, but it seems that it might be turning into a problem.

Sweed · 04-22-2018, 04:25 PM

Check his "turn DP rating". I believe if it drops below a certain threshold for 2b, 3b, and SS they lose the position. You can argue whether that should be by design or not but it is the way it is. When I go to add 3b or middle IF I am always cognizant of what their DP rating is and have passed on a few older players if their rating is especially low. Not so bad if in the AL with the DH but can be a big problem in the NL.

I just switched from always using the 1-20 scale in previous versions to the 2-8 in v19 so haven't any idea what that number is on the 2-8 or under the hood on the internal 250 scale.

Silfir · 04-22-2018, 04:34 PM

As players get older they slow down, which mechanically is represented by drops to their Speed rating as well as their Infield and Outfield Range. This will also reduce their position ratings over time.

The game considers a certain Infield Range value to be the bare minimum required for Second Base, since it's a difficult defensive position. Dropping under that value will result in the player being deemed wholly unfit to play the position, no matter how good he used to be at it. (EDIT: I never noticed Turn DP dropping overmuch with age - it's always been Range in both Outfield and Infield for me - but I may just not have noticed.)

It doesn't necessarily mean the player won't be effective at that position - to be honest, I've never closely looked at how the defensive stats pan out in these cases. No doubt he still has good Infield Error, Arm or Turn DP ratings, so he should be a better second baseman than someone who never had a position rating there.

I always look at the actual fielding ratings and mostly ignore position ratings, because it allows you to spot unsavory patterns, such as Range ratings being well below average on players over 30 year olds.

(Also, Fielding Ratings are basically the POT stat of the defense world; they tell you how high a defensive rating a player could be achieved at the various positions, provided you know which ratings are important for which position. Teaching new positions is trivial in spring training, so POT might as well be OVR in this case.)

D-BacksJosh · 04-22-2018, 04:53 PM

Thanks for the response. Turn DP, range, and error ratings look good to me. His arm is rated at 2, not sure if that is included in the overall formula, but at 2nd base it shouldn't matter that much.

NoOne · 04-22-2018, 07:27 PM

i think stats do influence defensive ratings - the overall defensive rating at a position and not the individual ratings like IF range, if i recall from an old post with a reply from an ootp-agent.

you are more accurate with players on yuor roster than with players on other rosters too, i believe. so, it could be a scouting correction... could be aging if that makes sense too.

usually ss/cf take the furthest tumble. i've seen some CF/SS lose their range well before ~30.

as far as defense goes, you don't have to worry if their speed drops.. all that matters is the range as far as defense is concerned. it's not completely unusual for speed to go the way of the dodo by mid to late 20's too.

Sweed: ignoring rounding errors, you can convert to any scale with a ratio of the 2 scales... the one you are going TO needs to be the numerator.. (denominatory or base is where you are coming from)

2-8.. does that have 1/2s? if not, it's a 7pt scale.

7/20 takes you from a 1-20 to a 2-8 (add "1", of course after the multiplication, or "20" if it's 20-80). 20/7 takes you from a 7 to a 20pt scale. when going from 2-8, subtract 1 (2-1=1 - starting value difference) before the multiplication. it's just like converting form whacky Farenheit to a more sensible Celsius. account for the difference in starting value to have apples to apples multiplication

beware of 1/2's and if "0" or "20" or "2" is included etc... ie. 2-8 isn't a 6pt scale because "zero" is included. if it's 0-20, it's a 21 pt scale etc.

D-BacksJosh · 04-22-2018, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

i think stats do influence defensive ratings - the overall defensive rating at a position and not the individual ratings like IF range, if i recall from an old post with a reply from an ootp-agent.

you are more accurate with players on yuor roster than with players on other rosters too, i believe. so, it could be a scouting correction... could be aging if that makes sense too.

usually ss/cf take the furthest tumble. i've seen some CF/SS lose their range well before ~30.

as far as defense goes, you don't have to worry if their speed drops.. all that matters is the range as far as defense is concerned. it's not completely unusual for speed to go the way of the dodo by mid to late 20's too.

Sweed: ignoring rounding errors, you can convert to any scale with a ratio of the 2 scales... the one you are going TO needs to be the numerator.. (denominatory or base is where you are coming from)

2-8.. does that have 1/2s? if not, it's a 7pt scale.

7/20 takes you from a 1-20 to a 2-8 (add "1", of course after the multiplication, or "20" if it's 20-80). 20/7 takes you from a 7 to a 20pt scale. when going from 2-8, subtract 1 (2-1=1 - starting value difference) before the multiplication. it's just like converting form whacky Farenheit to a more sensible Celsius. account for the difference in starting value to have apples to apples multiplication

beware of 1/2's and if "0" or "20" or "2" is included etc... ie. 2-8 isn't a 6pt scale because "zero" is included. if it's 0-20, it's a 21 pt scale etc.

Makes sense that the fielding stats might come into play. What specifically? errors, fielding pct. RF, ZR, EFF? Looking at his history seems to be consistent in all areas. So should I just ignore the blank postion rating on the field and hope for the best? Haven't really noticed any adverse results on the field so far.

bigd51 · 04-22-2018, 09:38 PM

Weird. Even a note in OOTP's Help Index states a player can't "lose" a position and that once he learns a position, he will always have a rating there...

D-BacksJosh · 04-22-2018, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd51

Weird. Even a note in OOTP's Help Index states a player can't "lose" a position and that once he learns a position, he will always have a rating there...

Interesting, I didn't notice that before. So, maybe this is a bug then?

bigd51 · 04-22-2018, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

Interesting, I didn't notice that before. So, maybe this is a bug then?

That, or they didn't update that part of the index

Izz · 04-22-2018, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

Interesting, I didn't notice that before. So, maybe this is a bug then?

Might refer to an 'under the hood' rating. Would be interesting to go into Commish mode and peek in the editor to see if this guy still has a rating in there at 2B.

D-BacksJosh · 04-23-2018, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izz

Might refer to an 'under the hood' rating. Would be interesting to go into Commish mode and peek in the editor to see if this guy still has a rating in there at 2B.

200 experience at 2nd base. Yet there is no resulting rating. I played with the arm number. Raising it does indeed produce a resulting rating. So the arm rating must be the determining factor for this player losing his position rating altogether.

Izz · 04-23-2018, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

200 experience at 2nd base. Yet there is no resulting rating. I played with the arm number. Raising it does indeed produce a resulting rating. So the arm rating must be the determining factor for this player losing his position rating altogether.

His arm is so bad i'm surprised he can throw at all

EDIT: Had a quick under-the-hood look through my league at infielders and found only two with a worse arm than your guy. A 41 y/o 1B/DH whose arm rating was 1 and another 1B, 26 y/o, with an arm of 8. The worst active 2B had an arm of 29.

EDIT2: Nothing saying you can't still play him at 2B, though. He has experience there so he should be better than some other random infielder. He won't be very good, though.

Silfir · 04-23-2018, 10:05 AM

I suppose that line is trying to say that there's no position experience decay - a player who has learnt to play a position will know how to play it forever. Players can still lose the "qualifications" to play a position as implied in the second header.

I did not suspect a 2B minimum for Infield Arm to be the culprit - you learn something new every day.

byzeil · 04-23-2018, 11:48 AM

I had a guy "loose" his displayed rating at 3B (underlying it is still there just not making the minimums to show as 3B). The guy had a great arm and I played him at 3B anyway and he did a very good job.

So yea your players arm fell off and the game thinks he needs an arm to play 2B

but go ahead and give him a shot and see how he does.

And yea, a player doesn't loose experience at a position but as his physical skills deteriorate the game will eventually not show him as being rated at a position if he doesn't meet the minimum requirements.

04-22-2018, 02:52 PM	#1
D-BacksJosh Banned Join Date: May 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 875	Position Rating Drop I think this has been brought up somewhere already. I use a 2-8 scale. In the off-season I signed this guy to take over duties at 2nd mostly because of his position rating there. He was ranked as a 7 all through spring training, but at the start of the season all of the sudden he forgot how to play altogether. I can understand a ratings drop with age, but not that severe. Had this happen to my 3rd baseman the previous season also, and I traded him thinking it was just a rare occurrence, but it seems that it might be turning into a problem. Attached Images

04-22-2018, 04:34 PM	#3
Silfir Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 138	As players get older they slow down, which mechanically is represented by drops to their Speed rating as well as their Infield and Outfield Range. This will also reduce their position ratings over time. The game considers a certain Infield Range value to be the bare minimum required for Second Base, since it's a difficult defensive position. Dropping under that value will result in the player being deemed wholly unfit to play the position, no matter how good he used to be at it. (EDIT: I never noticed Turn DP dropping overmuch with age - it's always been Range in both Outfield and Infield for me - but I may just not have noticed.) It doesn't necessarily mean the player won't be effective at that position - to be honest, I've never closely looked at how the defensive stats pan out in these cases. No doubt he still has good Infield Error, Arm or Turn DP ratings, so he should be a better second baseman than someone who never had a position rating there. I always look at the actual fielding ratings and mostly ignore position ratings, because it allows you to spot unsavory patterns, such as Range ratings being well below average on players over 30 year olds. (Also, Fielding Ratings are basically the POT stat of the defense world; they tell you how high a defensive rating a player could be achieved at the various positions, provided you know which ratings are important for which position. Teaching new positions is trivial in spring training, so POT might as well be OVR in this case.) Last edited by Silfir; 04-22-2018 at 04:37 PM.

04-22-2018, 04:53 PM	#4
D-BacksJosh Banned Join Date: May 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 875	Thanks for the response. Turn DP, range, and error ratings look good to me. His arm is rated at 2, not sure if that is included in the overall formula, but at 2nd base it shouldn't matter that much. Attached Images

04-22-2018, 07:27 PM	#5
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	i think stats do influence defensive ratings - the overall defensive rating at a position and not the individual ratings like IF range, if i recall from an old post with a reply from an ootp-agent. you are more accurate with players on yuor roster than with players on other rosters too, i believe. so, it could be a scouting correction... could be aging if that makes sense too. usually ss/cf take the furthest tumble. i've seen some CF/SS lose their range well before ~30. as far as defense goes, you don't have to worry if their speed drops.. all that matters is the range as far as defense is concerned. it's not completely unusual for speed to go the way of the dodo by mid to late 20's too. Sweed: ignoring rounding errors, you can convert to any scale with a ratio of the 2 scales... the one you are going TO needs to be the numerator.. (denominatory or base is where you are coming from) 2-8.. does that have 1/2s? if not, it's a 7pt scale. 7/20 takes you from a 1-20 to a 2-8 (add "1", of course after the multiplication, or "20" if it's 20-80). 20/7 takes you from a 7 to a 20pt scale. when going from 2-8, subtract 1 (2-1=1 - starting value difference) before the multiplication. it's just like converting form whacky Farenheit to a more sensible Celsius. account for the difference in starting value to have apples to apples multiplication beware of 1/2's and if "0" or "20" or "2" is included etc... ie. 2-8 isn't a 6pt scale because "zero" is included. if it's 0-20, it's a 21 pt scale etc. Last edited by NoOne; 04-22-2018 at 07:36 PM.

04-22-2018, 09:38 PM	#7
bigd51 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 277	Weird. Even a note in OOTP's Help Index states a player can't "lose" a position and that once he learns a position, he will always have a rating there... Attached Images

04-22-2018, 04:25 PM	#2
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,090 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Check his "turn DP rating". I believe if it drops below a certain threshold for 2b, 3b, and SS they lose the position. You can argue whether that should be by design or not but it is the way it is. When I go to add 3b or middle IF I am always cognizant of what their DP rating is and have passed on a few older players if their rating is especially low. Not so bad if in the AL with the DH but can be a big problem in the NL. I just switched from always using the 1-20 scale in previous versions to the 2-8 in v19 so haven't any idea what that number is on the 2-8 or under the hood on the internal 250 scale.

04-23-2018, 10:05 AM	#13
Silfir Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 138	I suppose that line is trying to say that there's no position experience decay - a player who has learnt to play a position will know how to play it forever. Players can still lose the "qualifications" to play a position as implied in the second header. I did not suspect a 2B minimum for Infield Arm to be the culprit - you learn something new every day.