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Old 09-30-2013, 11:09 AM   #1
Painmantle
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Dual Players 101 (Or How to develop the Next Babe Ruth)

Hello all,

After having several requests for help with this issue I have decided to just type up a “How To” about the subject. Everyone is familiar with the players, those guys drafted who you look at and say “Damn, I wish there was a way to develop and use this guy as Both a Pitcher and A Position player” Well it is your Lucky day, cause it can be done, and I’m here to tell you how I do it. Here is a little background on how my infatuation with this type of player began in OOTP.

One day I was toiling with the Idea of starting a Dynasty on the OOTP forums and I wanted it to be totally Original. I have always been infatuated with the Greatest Player ever to play the game… BABE RUTH…there is no argument that anyone else can make that will change my mind. Before Ruth was the “Sultan of Swat” he was one of the Best Pitchers in Baseball. So my idea was to start a Dynasty with Babe Ruth in 1918 (The first year he actually played Both ways on a regular basis) This Dynasty is still going strong and is now in 1923, It’s 6th season.

<Shameless Plug to follow>
You can see it here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...e-history.html

I have taken what I learned doing this Ruth Dynasty and applied it in theory to my online leagues. Using this system in the modern era brought a whole new set of obstacles since “stamina” by nature in the early 1900’s is so much higher by default than the Modern day. But the system I have developed is working as we speak in no less than 5 online leagues, and while your chances of actually getting a player capable of playing “both ways” are slim. I feel that you increase your chances of having them develop at least one set of skills acceptable at the ML level either Batting or Pitching…If you get Both consider yourself Lucky. And Frankly no matter what anyone says in rebuttal to this system or theory and it’s irrelevance to player development, Doing this with players is just DAMN FUN in my Opinion! So onto the system. (Note I’m not revealing all my secrets in this post) You guys need to learn some things for yourself) LOL

First off a few ground rules.

1) It is for the most part impossible to do it with anything other than a Starting Pitcher. (You must have control of when the player pitches)

2) The use of 7-day Lineups is an absolute MUST (If you don’t have the time or patience for this just quit reading right now)

3) I highly recommend you use a 6-man rotation on the team of the player you are developing. (If you get the player developed and into the Big Leagues you will most likely know the system well enough by then to use him in a 5 man rotation)

4) Players absolutely must have days off between Pitching and playing the field BUT always and I mean ALWAYS have you players position listed as SP no matter what he is doing.

5) A rule of thumb is minimum of 1 day off before he pitches and 2 days off after he pitches, This will give the player 3 “position days “per week , if your league doesn’t use the DH he’ll pitch once and play the field 3 time batting in a total of 4 games that week

6) If the League does use the DH he can't bat when he pitches, I have never found a way to make this work

7) Don’t get in a hurry, no need to over use the player when fatigued and run the risk of injury.

A typical week for a player would be
Monday: Use as the Starting Pitcher (and Hopefully bat)
Tuesday: Off day
Wednesday: Off day
Thursday: DH (Or play position)
Friday: DH (or play Position0
Saturday: DH (Or Play position) If your Pitcher is hitting when he is Pitching, or seems to be getting to the mound Fatigued..give him this day off too.
Sunday: Off Day

Then Rinse ,Lather, repeat the next week. I do have a Player in my WBF Online League who has made it to the ML roster and is being used as both a SP and LF….

It is also nice if you can work his Starts pitching around scheduled days off. This is one reason a 6 man Rotation is so important, it gives you more flexibility. For beginners it may be a good Idea to use a 6 man rotation without the Player your training even listed in the rotation While still having him listed as a SP, (this prevents the Game from using him as a defensive replacement or PH) so you can hand select when he starts and maybe get him a little more plate Appearances.

Questions or Comments are welcome. Good Luck and have fun with it, Maybe you will be the guy who develops the next Babe Ruth!
__________________
“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
My Dynasties
The Beantown Bambino

Last edited by Painmantle; 11-01-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:42 PM   #2
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Pretty awesome. I play every game and will give this a shot.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braunfullyaccused View Post
Pretty awesome. I play every game and will give this a shot.
If your playing all your games it's even better, The more "Hands On" the better, Good Luck!
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
My Dynasties
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:41 PM   #4
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Thumbs up

Many thanks for the crash course ... AND ... It's an awesome Dynasty read - 6 Stars !!!
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:56 PM   #5
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Any ideas on developing a dual player as a reliever? (The league I'm playing right now doesn't use the DH, so I don't have to worry about that.)
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Old 11-09-2013, 03:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Painmantle View Post
Hello all,

After having several requests for help with this issue I have decided to just type up a “How To” about the subject. Everyone is familiar with the players, those guys drafted who you look at and say “Damn, I wish there was a way to develop and use this guy as Both a Pitcher and A Position player” Well it is your Lucky day, cause it can be done, and I’m here to tell you how I do it. Here is a little background on how my infatuation with this type of player began in OOTP.

One day I was toiling with the Idea of starting a Dynasty on the OOTP forums and I wanted it to be totally Original. I have always been infatuated with the Greatest Player ever to play the game… BABE RUTH…there is no argument that anyone else can make that will change my mind. Before Ruth was the “Sultan of Swat” he was one of the Best Pitchers in Baseball. So my idea was to start a Dynasty with Babe Ruth in 1918 (The first year he actually played Both ways on a regular basis) This Dynasty is still going strong and is now in 1923, It’s 6th season.

<Shameless Plug to follow>
You can see it here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...e-history.html

I have taken what I learned doing this Ruth Dynasty and applied it in theory to my online leagues. Using this system in the modern era brought a whole new set of obstacles since “stamina” by nature in the early 1900’s is so much higher by default than the Modern day. But the system I have developed is working as we speak in no less than 5 online leagues, and while your chances of actually getting a player capable of playing “both ways” are slim. I feel that you increase your chances of having them develop at least one set of skills acceptable at the ML level either Batting or Pitching…If you get Both consider yourself Lucky. And Frankly no matter what anyone says in rebuttal to this system or theory and it’s irrelevance to player development, Doing this with players is just DAMN FUN in my Opinion! So onto the system. (Note I’m not revealing all my secrets in this post) You guys need to learn some things for yourself) LOL

First off a few ground rules.

1) It is for the most part impossible to do it with anything other than a Starting Pitcher. (You must have control of when the player pitches)

2) The use of 7-day Lineups is an absolute MUST (If you don’t have the time or patience for this just quit reading right now)

3) I highly recommend you use a 6-man rotation on the team of the player you are developing. (If you get the player developed and into the Big Leagues you will most likely know the system well enough by then to use him in a 5 man rotation)

4) Players absolutely must have days off between Pitching and playing the field BUT always and I mean ALWAYS have you players position listed as SP no matter what he is doing.

5) A rule of thumb is minimum of 1 day off before he pitches and 2 days off after he pitches, This will give the player 3 “position days “per week , if your league doesn’t use the DH he’ll pitch once and play the field 3 time batting in a total of 4 games that week

6) If the League does use the DH he can't bat when he pitches, I have never found a way to make this work

7) Don’t get in a hurry, no need to over use the player when fatigued and run the risk of injury.

A typical week for a player would be
Monday: Use as the Starting Pitcher (and Hopefully bat)
Tuesday: Off day
Wednesday: Off day
Thursday: DH (Or play position)
Friday: DH (or play Position0
Saturday: DH (Or Play position) If your Pitcher is hitting when he is Pitching, or seems to be getting to the mound Fatigued..give him this day off too.
Sunday: Off Day

Then Rinse ,Lather, repeat the next week. I do have a Player in my WBF Online League who has made it to the ML roster and is being used as both a SP and LF….

It is also nice if you can work his Starts pitching around scheduled days off. This is one reason a 6 man Rotation is so important, it gives you more flexibility. For beginners it may be a good Idea to use a 6 man rotation without the Player your training even listed in the rotation While still having him listed as a SP, (this prevents the Game from using him as a defensive replacement or PH) so you can hand select when he starts and maybe get him a little more plate Appearances.

Questions or Comments are welcome. Good Luck and have fun with it, Maybe you will be the guy who develops the next Babe Ruth!
So with the days off he should be getting about how
Many abats a season? And torun school of thought in basically for players who are actually pitchers that can hit some but what about player who is a actually an everyday hitter than can pitch some. His abats will be reduce by a lot?
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:41 PM   #7
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Pain I PMed you but figure others might need to know also. How do you bat your SP in a DH league?
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padreman View Post
So with the days off he should be getting about how
Many abats a season? And torun school of thought in basically for players who are actually pitchers that can hit some but what about player who is a actually an everyday hitter than can pitch some. His abats will be reduce by a lot?
In a good year the guy may see 200+ AB and 20 Starts as a Pitcher. It doesn't matter what the guys is better at. If you want to use him both ways, for all intensive purposes you must in your mind think of him as a SP who plays the field when he can.
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Game View Post
Pain I PMed you but figure others might need to know also. How do you bat your SP in a DH league?
You don't, I can't figure out how to get the Pitcher to bat in a DH league in a game he is the SP
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
My Dynasties
The Beantown Bambino
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #10
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Here is one of the guys I've been working with in the HRBL


As you can see in 2013 between Short A and Single A he had 212 AB and 13 GS

n
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:50 PM   #11
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Here is a guy in the WBF I'm working with, Keep in mind the minor leagues of this league only play a 90 game schedule



Remember, you'll probably never get a "Superstar" and you'll have to work with scores if not Hundreds of guys to get someone who even remotely has a chance of Pitching and Hitting at the ML level...there is a chance however that he could end up being decent at either /or but scant chance of getting a player capable of doing both
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:04 PM   #12
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The successful dual players I have seen developed in the minors just fine without ever playing the other role.

The game engine seems that a player can develop in either hitting or pitching without actually hitting or pitching.
As long as they stay injury free and develop they seem to develop their other skills even without playing time.
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
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The successful dual players I have seen developed in the minors just fine without ever playing the other role.

The game engine seems that a player can develop in either hitting or pitching without actually hitting or pitching.
As long as they stay injury free and develop they seem to develop their other skills even without playing time.

You obviously missed this part of the initial post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Painmantle View Post

....And Frankly no matter what anyone says in rebuttal to this system or theory and it’s irrelevance to player development, Doing this with players is just DAMN FUN in my Opinion! So onto the system. (Note I’m not revealing all my secrets in this post) You guys need to learn some things for yourself) LOL ......

!

But thanks for your input
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Painmantle View Post

A typical week for a player would be
Monday: Use as the Starting Pitcher (and Hopefully bat)
Tuesday: Off day
Wednesday: Off day
Thursday: DH (Or play position)
Friday: DH (or play Position0
Saturday: DH (Or Play position) If your Pitcher is hitting when he is Pitching, or seems to be getting to the mound Fatigued..give him this day off too.
Sunday: Off Day
Why do you rest him before and after pitching starts? I have a player like this whom I start on the mound every 5 games and play DH or OF in the games between starts. He is never fatigued enough to play a position in the games after he pitches. I think he's pitched over 30 starts and had 500+ PAs in the same season. I suppose it's not quite as realistic to have him do this, but the game does not inhibit him from doing so.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:22 PM   #15
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I tried this with Babe Ruth a couple of years ago and it didn't work. He lost his pitching prowess, fatigue I think. I decided to give him a day off after pitching but I didn't continue that league.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:49 PM   #16
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Why do you rest him before and after pitching starts? I have a player like this whom I start on the mound every 5 games and play DH or OF in the games between starts. He is never fatigued enough to play a position in the games after he pitches. I think he's pitched over 30 starts and had 500+ PAs in the same season. I suppose it's not quite as realistic to have him do this, but the game does not inhibit him from doing so.
What you describe isn't consistent with my experience. What I find is that after Pitching my players don't preform as well at a position without a day off. And without a day of rest before he pitches his performance on the mound suffers. (This I learned doing it in a solo league)

A few factors that could contribute to this are.

a) I never switch the players position from SP
b) I play almost exclusively in leagues that don't use a DH
c) I am doing this in online leagues which sim a week at a time so I am using the 7-day lineups for PT and therefore cannot track his daily fatigue.

Could you take a screen shot of the player you have mentioned with his Batting and Pitching stats? I would very much like to see his accomplishments.
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“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth
“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
My Dynasties
The Beantown Bambino

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Old 11-09-2013, 10:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Painmantle View Post
You obviously missed this part of the initial post:





But thanks for your input
Yes, I did miss that.

It is indeed fun trying to be a realistic GM. But it is also a big flaw in the game. Which is what I wanted to point out.

Even players who do not have a dual skill can develop. In fact, if
you have a reserve roster with an unlimited player limit, you can keep stockpiling prospects with no hope of ever playing and still have them develop.
It is something in the game engine that needs to be corrected going forward.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:46 AM   #18
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Bookmarking this thread for later reading (just heard the wife: "I'm reeeeaaady!") and thanking you, Painmantle.

[Sometime, please explain your user name, Painmantle. Are you acknowledging the pain that Mickey Mantle played through in his career?]

Also celebrating my 2,000 post. Double Hall of Fame status!

[I used to be 1998 Yankees. ]
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:48 PM   #19
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Bookmarking this thread for later reading (just heard the wife: "I'm reeeeaaady!") and thanking you, Painmantle.

[Sometime, please explain your user name, Painmantle. Are you acknowledging the pain that Mickey Mantle played through in his career?]

Also celebrating my 2,000 post. Double Hall of Fame status!

[I used to be 1998 Yankees. ]
My name came from a Diablo II Armor I found. One day I was trying to make a user name based on my real name Rhett Parsons...I tried every thing Imaginable that involved Rhett, the letter P and my last name...after several unsuccessful attempts on this particular site (And I can't remember where it was...I think it was an AOL e-mail account). I decided to try the name of a recently found Armor in Diablo II....it was right after the Expansion Pack came out with a 5th level and I thought it was the most amazing armor in the world. Anyway the name of the Armor was "The Pain Mantle" I think it had attacker takes damage or something.

But long story short, I've used this name on basically every Forum, site and/or place that requires a username and never once have I had that infamous error message "That user name is in use/unavailable etc.....

So that's how I became known as Painmantle to the point that my Friends even call me that or some derivative of the word "Pain" ...LOL
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“Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker
My Dynasties
The Beantown Bambino

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Old 11-10-2013, 03:57 PM   #20
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I'm going to ask again.

Dual outfielder/reliever. Any tips?
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