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OOTP 14 - General Discussions Discuss the new 2013 version of Out of the Park Baseball here!

View Poll Results: Which does the better job of putting you in the manager's chair?, which has the better all around AI
OOTP 14 67 54.47%
Football Manager 2013 56 45.53%
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:01 PM   #41
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FM is too much management and not enough game. OOTP is perhaps too much game and not enough management. Since I work at a highly stressful job there is no way I want or need the interactivity of FM. OOTP wins for me because I like playing and watching baseball

I think trying to compare the games is silly. Especially with the stated purpose of saying how bad OOTP is. The two sports are so radically different in set up preparation and execution that you just can't compare, especially at the training level. Baseball is played Football is practiced for.
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So much for personality. Albert Belle, a complete nut job was never traded and was the highest paid player in the game, twice!

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Old 08-22-2013, 07:07 PM   #42
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Die-hard baseball fan who could care less about soccer.. pretty easy decision for me
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUFC1878 View Post
I know a bit more about football than I know about baseball. I follow it more closely. But I can't enjoy FM as much as I do OOTP. I still like it very much, but I wouldn't call it very realistic. All the things people go on about--press interaction, training, etc--I just find them tedious.
The tactics are still clumsy. The stats are way over the top. Your captain, a product of your team's academy, wins all sorts of silverware but never becomes a club legend because he's a fullback and the game only acknowledges goals and assists? Right.

Plus it's too easy, even playing LLM. The only appeal of the game, for me, is playing as United and trying a build a squad with academy players and only UK and Irish signings.

But last I played was '11. I bought '13 and haven't got into it yet. Started a game and it just seemed like it was more of the same.
Very curious...you think OOTP is a more challenging GM experience than FZm....can you expound?
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post
FM is too much management and not enough game. OOTP is perhaps too much game and not enough management. Since I work at a highly stressful job there is no way I want or need the interactivity of FM. OOTP wins for me because I like playing and watching baseball

I think trying to compare the games is silly. Especially with the stated purpose of saying how bad OOTP is. The two sports are so radically different in set up preparation and execution that you just can't compare, especially at the training level. Baseball is played Football is practiced for.
I am not saying OOTP is bad at all. Why would I spend so much time at it? I guess for me, I wished it concentrated more on modern day to day management. It just doesn't...they say play it your way. And I try to make it as detailed as possible. I play only one day at a time, and even use real time to sim the games. It just feels like there isn't enough to do. There needs to be more detailed staff and interaction. There needs to be participation in player development with a full staff. For me I guess, as long as OOTP remains more of a " bare bones" sim (sort of like fof) I'm just not sure ill ever be totally engrossed and engaged...even though I am as much as one can be in OOTP's current state.
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:35 PM   #45
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One thing ill say..(many will be shocked) the way ratings are views by scouts in OOTP is much better than FM. In fm, there is a fog of war aspect, but the ratings you see are always true, and only based on a 1-20 scale. There is however much more to developing potential talent, and you don't see that. Also, I think the way players are discovered by scouts in FM is handled quite well. I just wish the rating you are given could be wrong (ala OOTP)
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #46
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I love OOTP and play it way more than FM but as far as putting you in the managers chair I would have to say FM.
Managing a team is about motivating players. Dealing with the media and owners. After that then it's about making a lineup and calling plays.
I think FM shines with player interaction. Game speeches and player criticism that actually has an effect on the players morale and performance. It gets deep , not every player reacts to the same motivation. Media interaction is the same. Your answers mean something.
I really get the feeling what I say determines if my team plays hard or not. To me it's more of a management game than a sim.
As far as the AI and realism. This last OOTP is pretty awesome and is right up there with FM.
I would love to see that kind of player/media interaction in the OOTP.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:33 AM   #47
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Another thing that really bothers me about FM..it does not require you to keep up with reserves. Which in the case of OOTP, would be minors.


EDIT: I mean why not just sell of all of my reserve player in an effort to win today They will be replaced my ghost players anyway...at least OOTP allows you to have a real live working minor league system.

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Old 08-23-2013, 01:45 AM   #48
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I suppose those though part of what I hate, is that when something is not up to snuff with OOTP IMO, people say "just pretend", where as in the FM community the developers and players themselves deman perfection and say, "hey, let's make it real and make it work right"
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:35 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
I suppose those though part of what I hate, is that when something is not up to snuff with OOTP IMO, people say "just pretend", where as in the FM community the developers and players themselves deman perfection and say, "hey, let's make it real and make it work right"
Remind me how many people work on FM?

I get your point but in many cases we disagree about where the time to improve the game should be spent. It's easy to demand perfection when there is less question of person-hours. In my case I'd ask (demand?) for a consensus on priorities before agreeing that time should be spent on certain areas of the game.
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“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

So much for personality. Albert Belle, a complete nut job was never traded and was the highest paid player in the game, twice!

#Alternativefacts=lies
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:53 AM   #50
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FM and OOTP are different games of the same genre about different sports. They both have strengths and weaknesses. I play both and rank them roughly equal.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 08-23-2013, 03:17 PM   #51
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I suppose...what I hate, is...people"
There. Fixed it.
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:10 PM   #52
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There. Fixed it.
Ok, that's enough of that. Stick to the original topic and stop shooting arrows.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
I suppose those though part of what I hate, is that when something is not up to snuff with OOTP IMO, people say "just pretend", where as in the FM community the developers and players themselves deman perfection and say, "hey, let's make it real and make it work right"
Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post
Remind me how many people work on FM?

I get your point but in many cases we disagree about where the time to improve the game should be spent. It's easy to demand perfection when there is less question of person-hours. In my case I'd ask (demand?) for a consensus on priorities before agreeing that time should be spent on certain areas of the game.
Exactly my thought when I read PSU's post but I was on my dinner hour and didn't have time to respond. One has to remember FM has coders that work on the media module only, in game AI only, squad building only, tactics only, team talks, personalities, etc. etc. etc. Hell, they may start building a new module today, test it in house for a couple of years, and then fianally add it to the game when they are ready. OOTP doesn't have that luxury.

I am actually amazed with the samll size of OOTP Dev. that we have very few things we have to "pretend" about.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:56 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
Another thing that really bothers me about FM..it does not require you to keep up with reserves. Which in the case of OOTP, would be minors.


EDIT: I mean why not just sell of all of my reserve player in an effort to win today They will be replaced my ghost players anyway...at least OOTP allows you to have a real live working minor league system.
Does FM prevent you from having a full reserve squad? I don't think so I think, like OOTP, ghost players are for your convenience. I would think if one wanted to take the time in FM to maintain a full squad one could do it. I simply wouldn't want to be bothered as it would add a ton of time to play with no real payback to me the player. YMMV.

So both allow ghost players which is a good thing. Not sure how only ghost players in your FM reserves would work out, maybe you have tried it? I would think the board would be upset and you could get sacked for not having a plan for the future. If there was no downside to doing this I would find that to be a pretty big hole in the FM AI and would be surprised to find out that FM coders hadn't considered this and covered that potential exploit.

Having said that, even if FM did allow this exploit I wouldn't use it. Too me it would take away the reality I was looking for and ruin my game. Add in that part of the fun of FM, and OOTP for that matter, is having those special youngsters at a lower level and waiting impatiently for them to finally make it to the Show\Premiership. If one is looking for a realistic experience what would be the point of exploiting the game? Because the game doesn't prevent it it's ok? To me it's really only a problem if the AI can do it.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:14 PM   #55
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Triple dola?

Both games are great and IMHO are on an equal footing.

As to the original question I think OOTP does a better job of putting ME into the managers seat.

I think OOTP does a better job of putting the game on the field, keeping a statistical history over hundreds of seasons, and creating new players that come into the baseball world it has built. I simply don't have the experience with football to say that about FM. I do know there are tons of posts from those that grew up watching football on the FM boards complaining "this isn't realistic" and "that isn't realistic" to know there are problems. Too many headers going in, crosses score too much\too little (take your pick), etc. It is a great game and I love playing it but it is far from perfect and IMHO does not do a better job than OOTP.

As I said in your thread from a year or two ago what FM does better than any game I have ever played is leave you with the feeling you are dealing with people (and a lot of them) not simply a "bag of ratings". It is the area where FM is better than OOTP and is the direct result of having teams of coders and not just Markus and Andreas.

The bad thing about SEGA buying FM is they weren't interested in keeping the little guy, OOTP. OOTP under the SI\Sega umbrella would have certainly "borrowed" much of what makes FM great, IE the feeling you are dealing with human beings.

I don't feel entirely bad about Sega dumping OOTP as it has allowed Markus to continue to build his vision of the game without a beancounter getting involved. But Sega has done a pretty good job of letting FM be and so one does wonder what OOTP would be today if it had stayed with SI.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
Does FM prevent you from having a full reserve squad? I don't think so I think, like OOTP, ghost players are for your convenience. I would think if one wanted to take the time in FM to maintain a full squad one could do it. I simply wouldn't want to be bothered as it would add a ton of time to play with no real payback to me the player. YMMV.

So both allow ghost players which is a good thing. Not sure how only ghost players in your FM reserves would work out, maybe you have tried it? I would think the board would be upset and you could get sacked for not having a plan for the future. If there was no downside to doing this I would find that to be a pretty big hole in the FM AI and would be surprised to find out that FM coders hadn't considered this and covered that potential exploit.

Having said that, even if FM did allow this exploit I wouldn't use it. Too me it would take away the reality I was looking for and ruin my game. Add in that part of the fun of FM, and OOTP for that matter, is having those special youngsters at a lower level and waiting impatiently for them to finally make it to the Show\Premiership. If one is looking for a realistic experience what would be the point of exploiting the game? Because the game doesn't prevent it it's ok? To me it's really only a problem if the AI can do it.
No, it doesn't prevent you if you want to, but the AI will NOT do the same. I do wish the leagues would require teams to sign a minimum number of real players for the reserve squads.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:43 PM   #57
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Triple dola?

Both games are great and IMHO are on an equal footing.

As to the original question I think OOTP does a better job of putting ME into the managers seat.

I think OOTP does a better job of putting the game on the field, keeping a statistical history over hundreds of seasons, and creating new players that come into the baseball world it has built. I simply don't have the experience with football to say that about FM. I do know there are tons of posts from those that grew up watching football on the FM boards complaining "this isn't realistic" and "that isn't realistic" to know there are problems. Too many headers going in, crosses score too much\too little (take your pick), etc. It is a great game and I love playing it but it is far from perfect and IMHO does not do a better job than OOTP.

As I said in your thread from a year or two ago what FM does better than any game I have ever played is leave you with the feeling you are dealing with people (and a lot of them) not simply a "bag of ratings". It is the area where FM is better than OOTP and is the direct result of having teams of coders and not just Markus and Andreas.

The bad thing about SEGA buying FM is they weren't interested in keeping the little guy, OOTP. OOTP under the SI\Sega umbrella would have certainly "borrowed" much of what makes FM great, IE the feeling you are dealing with human beings.

I don't feel entirely bad about Sega dumping OOTP as it has allowed Markus to continue to build his vision of the game without a beancounter getting involved. But Sega has done a pretty good job of letting FM be and so one does wonder what OOTP would be today if it had stayed with SI.

I find myself wondering that all the time. I really do think the guys at SI don't have too many problems from SEGA when it come to the creative process. In fact, they may get more problems from the licensing aspect of what they do. Leagues, clubs etc..

I guess I wish I knew more about what the plan for OOTP is as far as the future goes. I am glad it is now a good tight game AI wise, player development wise etc... I am just starting to feel as though OOTP now needs to venture into some uncharted territory and really try to go to the next level. Finances, graphics, stadium models....these are all new and ambitious types of features, but I really do feel the time has come. I'd also like see a real working "world" with all the different leagues (independent, foreign, college, HS) similar to FM.

Markus doesn't seem to like to share where his head is however. I would never hold him to every idea he may discuss, and I realize he wants to see what is feasible, but it would be nice to sort of have a "long range planning committee to get an idea of what types of ideas Markus has.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:52 PM   #58
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OOTP vs. FM Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
Triple dola?

Both games are great and IMHO are on an equal footing.

As to the original question I think OOTP does a better job of putting ME into the managers seat.

I think OOTP does a better job of putting the game on the field, keeping a statistical history over hundreds of seasons, and creating new players that come into the baseball world it has built. I simply don't have the experience with football to say that about FM. I do know there are tons of posts from those that grew up watching football on the FM boards complaining "this isn't realistic" and "that isn't realistic" to know there are problems. Too many headers going in, crosses score too much\too little (take your pick), etc. It is a great game and I love playing it but it is far from perfect and IMHO does not do a better job than OOTP.

As I said in your thread from a year or two ago what FM does better than any game I have ever played is leave you with the feeling you are dealing with people (and a lot of them) not simply a "bag of ratings". It is the area where FM is better than OOTP and is the direct result of having teams of coders and not just Markus and Andreas.

The bad thing about SEGA buying FM is they weren't interested in keeping the little guy, OOTP. OOTP under the SI\Sega umbrella would have certainly "borrowed" much of what makes FM great, IE the feeling you are dealing with human beings.

I don't feel entirely bad about Sega dumping OOTP as it has allowed Markus to continue to build his vision of the game without a beancounter getting involved. But Sega has done a pretty good job of letting FM be and so one does wonder what OOTP would be today if it had stayed with SI.
They have gotten better in fixing those unrealistic problems just like OOTP has fixed its unrealistic problems (in game scenarios, player creation, etc) I don't think one is exclusive from another when it comes to this subject.
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:44 PM   #59
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I have never played FM mostly because I have read that customization and
fictional league are very difficult or impossible. Please let me know if that's not the case.
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:50 PM   #60
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OOTP vs. FM Revisited

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I have never played FM mostly because I have read that customization and
fictional league are very difficult or impossible. Please let me know if that's not the case.
Impossible is harsh, difficult is legit but only when comparing OOTP. I can name other text sims that are harder to customize than FM. There are people customizing FM and creating fictional databases all the time.
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