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Old 02-13-2020, 11:31 PM   #21
One Great Matrix
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I didn't mean to answer your question, just to point out that if your team threw 6 no-hitters in a couple months, that would be enjoyed without questioning the exact comparison of OOTP to MLB occurences...

For a solid statistics-driven program, they do a good job of trying to get these things right...

There is a play-by-play, but not in the game log, only in the replay...and it's not one of the primary features in the game at this time

BTW, 4 triple plays a season?
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by One Great Matrix View Post
I didn't mean to answer your question, just to point out that if your team threw 6 no-hitters in a couple months, that would be enjoyed without questioning the exact comparison of OOTP to MLB occurences...

For a solid statistics-driven program, they do a good job of trying to get these things right...

There is a play-by-play, but not in the game log, only in the replay...and it's not one of the primary features in the game at this time

BTW, 4 triple plays a season?
No that would not be enjoyed without question. I treat OOTP more like an RPG/Sim than I do a game that can be beat. If my team gets powerful and is in the playoffs every year, I quit and start over.

And yes, according to the link below there were 40 triple plays in the ten seasons from 2010 - 2019.

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/fea...le_plays.shtml

I eventually want OOTP to be so realistic that I can take a set of 100 real box scores and 100 OOTP box scores without being able to tell the difference. Still a ways to go on that goal.

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Old 02-14-2020, 07:05 PM   #23
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So do I a lot of the time, but what do you mean?

This may seem a somewhat obvious example but the game & statistics change...Babe Ruth:

Home Run Leaders

1900: 12 Herman Long, Boston
1910: 10 Fred Beck, Boston...10 Frank Schulte, Chicago...10 Jake Stahl, Boston
1920: 54 Babe Ruth, New York

Source: Elias
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by One Great Matrix View Post
So do I a lot of the time, but what do you mean?

This may seem a somewhat obvious example but the game & statistics change...Babe Ruth:

Home Run Leaders

1900: 12 Herman Long, Boston
1910: 10 Fred Beck, Boston...10 Frank Schulte, Chicago...10 Jake Stahl, Boston
1920: 54 Babe Ruth, New York

Source: Elias
And? What relevance is that to a modern day sim?
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:32 PM   #25
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As far as the sim being somehow identical to a sport that isn't static...(there are modern examples as well)

Anyway, did you try watching the replay..? See if the runner slipped or the pitcher used wizard-like mental powers to hold the runner at 3rd?

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Old 02-14-2020, 09:10 PM   #26
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Hope I'm not drilling the point home too hard since we react emotionally sometimes or...however we react...but this chat led me to thinking of a 1-6-3-2 or 1-4-3-2 & I found a real-life example...sometimes it might happen, I'm not even sure if the play you're talking about is maybe an oversight of sorts or not...

But here's a 1-6-3-2 on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BkIL1gZVM0
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:28 PM   #27
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I think its a fair request on unusual events. If the ultimate goal is to have a baseball simulation just like real life its nice to locate these unusual issues and have a reason behind them For the longest time I had an issue with intentional walks is the most unusual of situations and after years of bringing it to the attention it seems to have gotten MUCH better.
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Old 02-14-2020, 10:04 PM   #28
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As far as the sim being somehow identical to a sport that isn't static...(there are modern examples as well)

Anyway, did you try watching the replay..? See if the runner slipped or the pitcher used wizard-like mental powers to hold the runner at 3rd?

I watched it live.
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Old 02-14-2020, 10:13 PM   #29
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I think its a fair request on unusual events. If the ultimate goal is to have a baseball simulation just like real life its nice to locate these unusual issues and have a reason behind them For the longest time I had an issue with intentional walks is the most unusual of situations and after years of bringing it to the attention it seems to have gotten MUCH better.
I agree. Other things that have been improved in the last few years that I had been pointing out previously were things like:

Too many runners being thrown out at third for the last out
Too many runners tagging at first to advance to second
Closers always being pulled after one batter if that batter hit a HR even though save situation intact

Those were a few of the unrealistic outcomes I've highlighted in the past that have been improved upon. I will continue to do this in the future because I love this game and want it to be better. I also appreciate that the devs here seem to be pretty responsive to the community when things are pointed out as being "off". A perfect example is the recent fix to the scouting tab concerning OSA scouting. Now I wasn't the first one to make a thread about it but I did do a decent amount of research to verify and highlight the problem. People need to realize that I'm not dissing the game when I bring these things up. I'm just trying to improve the sim so that when I am "role playing" strange outcomes that "break immersion" happen less often.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:53 AM   #30
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I agree. Other things that have been improved in the last few years that I had been pointing out previously were things like:

Too many runners being thrown out at third for the last out
Too many runners tagging at first to advance to second
Closers always being pulled after one batter if that batter hit a HR even though save situation intact

Those were a few of the unrealistic outcomes I've highlighted in the past that have been improved upon. I will continue to do this in the future because I love this game and want it to be better. I also appreciate that the devs here seem to be pretty responsive to the community when things are pointed out as being "off". A perfect example is the recent fix to the scouting tab concerning OSA scouting. Now I wasn't the first one to make a thread about it but I did do a decent amount of research to verify and highlight the problem. People need to realize that I'm not dissing the game when I bring these things up. I'm just trying to improve the sim so that when I am "role playing" strange outcomes that "break immersion" happen less often.
OK, did you read the play-by-play? I've seen "runner stumbles" before...another one of my points was that tons of little unusual things happen & it's basically a sim based on pitcher-hitter statistics (and other numbers)...these other things...like Jeter having a clear-head at SS if not the greatest range aren't necessarily covered. And that's fine. OOTP could even have its own flavor as in, "yeah, that happens in the MLB but it's not something you're going to see in an OOTP simulation." Trying to re-create everything about an MLB game would be a disaster.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:02 AM   #31
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Yeah, I knew you weren't necessarily dissing the game (and didn't necessarily take it personally if you were) but I was curious

Was the runner that held at 3rd on your team?
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:08 AM   #32
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Triple plays

I think I found 2 triple plays in MLB history of the pitcher to 2nd to 1st to home with runners on 1st & 3rd variety...but look at these 2 colorful triple plays I found while I was researching:
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:18 AM   #33
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OK, did you read the play-by-play? I've seen "runner stumbles" before...another one of my points was that tons of little unusual things happen & it's basically a sim based on pitcher-hitter statistics (and other numbers)...these other things...like Jeter having a clear-head at SS if not the greatest range aren't necessarily covered. And that's fine. OOTP could even have its own flavor as in, "yeah, that happens in the MLB but it's not something you're going to see in an OOTP simulation." Trying to re-create everything about an MLB game would be a disaster.
Yes I read the PbP. How else do you know what actually happens? And I have no idea what you mean by saying that OOTP doesn't use actual range ratings. And sure, OOTP can have its own flavor. But then it can't run sims at the beginning of each year and do a big production with MLB on the outcomes of those sims as predictors for the upcoming season. I don't really understand your argument.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:19 AM   #34
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I think I found 2 triple plays in MLB history of the pitcher to 2nd to 1st to home with runners on 1st & 3rd variety...but look at these 2 colorful triple plays I found while I was researching:
OK and how is this relevant?
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:32 AM   #35
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There were certain qualities Jeter had in the field that you can't gleam from defensive statistics. I was saying those might not be covered, his headiness. Not range

... stats are funny, Ozzie Smith averaged about 3.33 assists per game at short, about 0.67 above even a very good SS...I think that says something about his range, for sure (all-time leader in assists in NL as well, possibly in MLB history)...I mean they're generated one way or another, the methods aren't exact counts regarding the game because on offense stats relate to scoring but on defense it is much harder to produce "not scoring" statistics, I.e. how many runs does the player really prevent & how? You can't just sort of tally things up...except maybe assists...catches per game in the outfield average over many games....etc.

I'm not against saber just trying to explain the differences between traditional stats and some of the saber attempts to measure things. In fact I like sabermetrics very much...I just don't like them any more than traditional measures.

...The colorful triple plays was just in the spirit of talking baseball, not arguing.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:34 AM   #36
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Yes I read the PbP. How else do you know what actually happens? And I have no idea what you mean by saying that OOTP doesn't use actual range ratings. And sure, OOTP can have its own flavor. But then it can't run sims at the beginning of each year and do a big production with MLB on the outcomes of those sims as predictors for the upcoming season. I don't really understand your argument.
What did the pBp say? How else you could know is by watching and seeing that the runner didn't budge.

Bye-bye
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:45 AM   #37
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What did the pBp say? How else you could know is by watching and seeing that the runner didn't budge.

Bye-bye
The PbP is "canon". The animation is an "artistic representation". Just the fact that you think the runner not budging has any meaning makes me wonder how much you actually know about OOTP. And the PbP said the same thing it says for any "routine" groundball double play.
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Old 02-15-2020, 02:40 AM   #38
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Wink Jeter not on the Yankees is not even a top 25 all time shortstop!

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There were certain qualities Jeter had in the field that you can't gleam from defensive statistics. I was saying those might not be covered, his headiness. Not range

... stats are funny, Ozzie Smith averaged about 3.33 assists per game at short, about 0.67 above even a very good SS...I think that says something about his range, for sure (all-time leader in assists in NL as well, possibly in MLB history)...I mean they're generated one way or another, the methods aren't exact counts regarding the game because on offense stats relate to scoring but on defense it is much harder to produce "not scoring" statistics, I.e. how many runs does the player really prevent & how? You can't just sort of tally things up...except maybe assists...catches per game in the outfield average over many games....etc.

I'm not against saber just trying to explain the differences between traditional stats and some of the saber attempts to measure things. In fact I like sabermetrics very much...I just don't like them any more than traditional measures.

...The colorful triple plays was just in the spirit of talking baseball, not arguing.
Read Smart Baseball. Headiness, really? How is that not totally subjective?
Jeter was an average to above average fielder. He couldn't hold Ozzie Smith's jockstrap
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:47 AM   #39
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Read Smart Baseball. Headiness, really? How is that not totally subjective?
Jeter was an average to above average fielder. He couldn't hold Ozzie Smith's jockstrap
Hi there, Mariners and Giants Fan...

I agree on Ozzie being the best shortstop probably ever.

As for Jeter's headiness...

Let's see...

Sans "headiness",
A player stands at the shortstop position,
has excellent range,
can throw on target,
can successfully field the hardest balls hit in his excellent range...

After that everything a shortstop does requires headiness...

This other guy may pick the ball up and not know where to throw it,
may not put himself in the right place to make plays (A's playoff game),
may not cover 2nd base when it's his job to do so on a stolen base attempt...
may collide with an outfielder going after a ball hit in between the infield & the outfield...
If I were more heady I could rattle off more, in fact the sentence before this paragraph says it all. (the one in bold)
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:45 AM   #40
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Derek Jeter's dWAR for his career was -8.3 according to Baseball Reference. I don't think too many serious sports analysts consider Jeter to have been anything more than an average to below average defensive shortstop. For comparison, Ozzie Smith's career dWAR was 44.2. So on defense Smith was worth 50 wins in his career compared to Jeter.
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