Competitive balance discussion

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Well I'm not the person you're asking but I'm in the exact same position. Spent $40 because it seemed at the time it would help me keep pace with other teams, give me a better chance to win, and get promoted, which is the whole point, right?

With that small investment I made the playoffs every week, got promoted every week, and even won the WS once. Good times were had. But now I am in perfect league, I totally hit a wall because my gold/silver player roster just can't compete with perfect/diamond rosters. I can't improve my team because the points have dried up, I can't get relegated without tanking and risking a ban, and I certainly can't win. So yeah there are no good options for me really and I'm starting to lose interest. If you have any suggestions other than throwing hundreds of $$$ into the game, I'm all ears...

Lesson learned I suppose. I won't be throwing small amounts at this game next time around. Better to just chill in a lower league as an FTP team.

Which is more important to Markus: keeping the revenue of the big spenders or maintaining the interest of those who spend little or nothing? Ideally, he'll find a way to do both.

[Clavette]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Which is more important to Markus: keeping the revenue of the big spenders or maintaining the interest of those who spend little or nothing? Ideally, he'll find a way to do both.

Yea I imagine that is the goal. And it's not an easy one to accomplish.

My thought stays the same where theres a tiered pyramid in perfect to continue bumping up the whales and put them up against whales.

I spent money for the exact reason orcin said: to stay above the f2p players. More pp gives me a better chance to get better players and stay a step ahead

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I don't have any other suggestions, but this is exactly my point. There's no way that $40 is going to compete with people that are spending $1000 or more. That's senseless. All that $40 will do is put you a level or two above the free players. So, if you spent $40 in hopes of getting above the free players, welcome to diamond level (perfect if you got lucky in week 4 and were in a weaker league).

Yeah, you're not wrong. The issue for me was just that I had no way of knowing that. It was the first time ever playing a new game mode. I simply underestimated how much money people would be willing to spend on virtual baseball cards. I thought whales meant spending maybe a hundred or so, and I can definitely still compete with that level of team. But these teams in perfect level would have to spend much, much more than that. I wasn't expecting that.

Nor was I expecting just how difficult it would be to get relegated out of perfect. I didn't play in the beta, and in the early weeks like half of each league gets promoted. So I got the impression that the leagues would continue being quite fluid. I hadn't realized the promotion/relegation numbers would get much smaller once the leagues were filled.

btw my team in diamond was pretty dominant, won over 100 games. I'm pretty sure I would have been promoted into perfect regardless of my luck.

[Weaseltail]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Which is more important to Markus: keeping the revenue of the big spenders or maintaining the interest of those who spend little or nothing? Ideally, he'll find a way to do both.

I think tournaments could be a game changer in 20. If implemented well, they could give low/no budget teams a way to compete and have fun outside the league structure. They could also add a lot of variety to the game and provide content once your league team is basically set.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Serious question... what did you hope to accomplish with your $20-$40 investment?

Serious answer...I generally don't spend money on a game already paid for, but I decided to spend $25 one time to support them and at the same time, help me stay competitive with my friends who spent similar amounts. Also, I wanted to support the Devs. to the extent I can afford.



Beyond that, the only thing I EXPECTED was what was suggested by the Devs would develop...mainly leagues that would be competitive through advancement and relegation. It appears that this will not occur given the current state of the game at Perfect level without spending money I'm unwilling/uncomfortable spending.



As I have said in other posts, I honestly did not expect there to be dozens of people willing to lay down hundreds and even thousands of dollars to play well. If I had, I probably would have spent nothing and enjoyed the game more through slower advancement.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I don't have any other suggestions, but this is exactly my point. There's no way that $40 is going to compete with people that are spending $1000 or more. That's senseless. All that $40 will do is put you a level or two above the free players. So, if you spent $40 in hopes of getting above the free players, welcome to diamond level (perfect if you got lucky in week 4 and were in a weaker league).

You're right, it's senseless to assume you're going to compete IF you know this in advance.



On the other hand, how would any of us know this in advance? I've heard the Devs exclaim that PT has exceeded their own hopes by leaps and bounds. Great for them! Not so great for the small to middle investor.
As described earlier, we inadvertently bought our way into a no win situation. Understand?

[screamingpalm]

Honestly, I do wish there was a second league that was solely "FTP". Basically I wish we could have 2 teams- one that we spend money on and one in a league with no auction house etc. I think it would be really interesting to have a slower progression and a league where there isn't Corbin and Dierker etc on every team. Would make lower level cards useful for longer and be fun to make a team work solely from packs from points earned.

I certainly have nothing against the whales or spending money- I have spent on the game, will spend more again, and am not posting this with any agenda in mind. I just very honestly think it would be fun.

[Kushiel]

You do not have to spend money to have fun. I have 2 FTP teams now behind my Horned Frogs. They are both fun.

The first FTP team is in Diamond now and over their heads because they advanced too fast as some of you complain about your own teams. Everybody does not get a trophy. Big deal! They are no less fun to play because they are playing .450 ball now instead of challenging for the playoffs.. On the contrary the fun is the challenge to move them up the standings. Yes it will be slow. What is it about instant gratification? I may be old but I do not understand what makes people want to change all the rules to fit the game into a mold so that they can win now. Work at it; you will appreciate it more.

My second FTP team is 18 games ahead of their division in Bronze League. Are they headed for the same dilemma as my other FTP team? Very likely! So at that point should I complain twice as loud and twice as often because I will have 2 teams in leagues over their head? No, I think not.

It is just a game. Find your niche and have fun. If you must win to have fun then play solo in Commissioner Mode

[Clavette]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

It is just a game. Find your niche and have fun. If you must win to have fun then play solo in Commissioner Mode

Couldn't have said it better myself

[runyan99]

They can increase the competitive balance with a "salary" constraint at each tier. Without any constraints the mode will always be wildly tilted in favor of the whales only. That's not constructive if it means the low dollar players lose interest, or have strong incentives to tank.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by runyan99

Without any constraints the mode will always be wildly tilted in favor of the whales only.

Are you seeing a bunch of whales at silver level?

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Are you seeing a bunch of whales at silver level?

can't speak for the other silver leagues, but the one my teams are in is quite competitive/balanced this season. Only one division has the leading team ahead by double digits (and they are hardly a whale, with only 3 diamond/2 gold players and the rest silver/bronze). In three divisions, 1st place and last place is separated by single digits.

should be a fun final month to watch.

[Orcin]

The problem here is that people expect EVERY level to be crippled so they can win the highest level with their meager investment. Silver and bronze levels exist for the free-to-play and theme teams. Gold level should be fun for the player that spends $20-$40. Diamond level is for those that are heading to perfect (i.e. spending money or very lucky with pack pulls) and haven't quite made it. Perfect level is for the whales. People who want to get a free-to-play team to Perfect and win are enjoying the challenge. They aren't in here whining to have it neutered so they can compete.

If you are at a level that is too high for your enjoyment, sell off a few of your higher level players and replace them with those coveted over-performing silvers or some personal favorites. It might take a few weeks, but you will eventually drop to gold level where you want to be. Start having fun. Chill out and enjoy the journey.

[runyan99]

Advising the low dollar player not to let their team get too good, lest they get matched up in a Diamond league where they will be uncompetitive is exactly outlining the problem. That's poor design.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by runyan99

Advising the low dollar player not to let their team get too good, lest they get matched up in a Diamond league where they will be uncompetitive is exactly outlining the problem. That's poor design.

No, it is wrong expectations. If your team is at the top of the gold league range, it is not going to be at the top of the diamond league range - much the contrary. It baffles me that you have to spell it out again and again and nauseatingly again: teams in higher leagues will have better players and will increasingly set out to murder your no-dime-spent team.

[runyan99]

I can see that. Is that fun?

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by runyan99

Advising the low dollar player not to let their team get too good, lest they get matched up in a Diamond league where they will be uncompetitive is exactly outlining the problem. That's poor design.

There are 30 teams in each league at each level. The teams all play each other. There can be only one winner in each game. Someone has to finish last at each level. It would be impossible to design a competitive game where everyone wins and there are no losers.

Somebody is going to finish last at bronze level too. Should we award them points so they can get better? Oh wait, I better not give them ideas.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by Orcin

There are 30 teams in each league at each level. The teams all play each other. There can be only one winner in each game. Someone has to finish last at each level. It would be impossible to design a competitive game where everyone wins and there are no losers.

Somebody is going to finish last at bronze level too. Should we award them points so they can get better? Oh wait, I better not give them ideas.

This all just seems to come down to instant gratification with everyone being in a win now mode. Some people are willing to spend a little to get that edge to win at the lower level, but then get discouraged when they reach the top and someone is willing to spend more to get the edge.

Bad design would be having multiple levels to move up or down to. Maybe promotion was a little too aggressive, but things should have settled down.

Everyone can't always win at every level, especially in this mode. Sometimes you will struggle.

What I find interesting is that every year you see all these posts about which team is the biggest challenge, this is too easy, etc. Problem solved.

Not everyone is going to have success at the top level. Someone is always going to spend more money, more time, or get luckier. It's just not possible for everyone to win at the top.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Westheim;4414280It [B

baffles [/B]me that you have to spell it out again and again and nauseatingly again: teams in higher leagues will have better players and will increasingly set out to murder your no-dime-spent team.

this is well understood, now. It was just the first time is all, and many of us spent money only to trap our teams into unwinnable and non-fun situations. We won't be making that mistake again. Bashing people for not perfectly predicting the balance, on the very first attempt, is not productive to the discussion.



The only reason I am commenting is because I feel like "the lesson I learned from my first time playing PT is that I shouldn't have spent money" is relevant feedback the devs might be interested in hearing. I don't want them to lose my revenue next year but that is the path the game is currently on.

[Weaseltail]

Player 1: My team's getting crushed in (insert league) and I can't afford to improve it any more. I'd much rather be in a league with teams at my level.

Player 2: Not everyone can win. If you don't like it, try a different game.

Me: