NFL Tie Breaker

[Ragnar]

I have a tie breaker question. Lets say 3 teams are tied for the division win. The first three tie breakers are....

Best won loss tie % in games among the clubs
Best won loss tied % in division games.
Best won loss tie % in common games.

The teams are 2-2 in the first. Team A and team B are tied for best Div record while team C has an inferior Div record. The exact same scenario plays out for the 3rd tie breaker.

In the link is says this.....

1.Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step

This seems to indicate I continue through the tie breakers even though Team C came out behind because I can only advance one team, not two. Do I have this right? I have a little football sim and this is my current problem.

NFL Tie-Breaking Procedures

[MorseMoose]

I would say that Team C is out because of the 2nd tiebreak. Then, yes...you'd go through the tiebreaking scenarios. That's the purpose of having a bunch of tie-breaking rules.

*Could be wrong...

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I have a tie breaker question. Lets say 3 teams are tied for the division win. The first three tie breakers are....

Best won loss tie % in games among the clubs
Best won loss tied % in division games.
Best won loss tie % in common games.

The teams are 2-2 in the first. Team A and team B are tied for best Div record while team C has an inferior Div record. The exact same scenario plays out for the 3rd tie breaker.

In the link is says this..... This seems to indicate I continue through the tie breakers even though Team C came out behind because I can only advance one team, not two. Do I have this right? I have a little football sim and this is my current problem.

NFL Tie-Breaking Procedures

Note that is says advance, not eliminate. So in the scenario you describe, you start with the three-way tiebreaking procedure since there are three teams. At the moment one team is eliminated in a tiebreaking step, the process then reverts to the two-team tiebreaking procedure to determine the club advancing from those two teams.

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

So in your example club C is eliminated after the second step of the three-way tiebreaker, meaning the tie between A and B reverts to step one of the two-way tiebreaker. At some point in the two-way tiebreaker either A or B will be declared the division winner.

[Ragnar]

Ok thanks. You can eliminate a team even though there was no clear winner. That was where I got hung up.

[Ragnar]

Every time I think I have it, I run into another problem.

All 3 teams are in the playoffs. One wins the division. After I drop Team C and determine who wins the division, does Team C automatically become the lower seed? Lets say Team A beats out Team B for the Div. Do I now have to do a sperate tie breaker for B and C to see who gets the 4th and 5th seed?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

All 3 teams are in the playoffs. One wins the division. After I drop Team C and determine who wins the division, does Team C automatically become the lower seed?

I believe C would be ranked third, behind whichever club lost out when the tiebreaker reverted to two teams. Unless, that is, C (and the second place club in the division) is tied with a club or clubs in another division for one or more wild card berths, in which case the seeding for playoff matchup purposes is determined by tiebreakers between the clubs tied for the wild cards.

[Postman]

Determining Wildcards

Three or More Clubs
1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the three Wild-Card participants.

In your example, then, team B would be seeded fifth and C sixth (the first four seeds are the division winners).

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Postman

Determining Wildcards

Three or More Clubs
1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the three Wild-Card participants.

In your example, then, team B would be seeded fifth and C sixth (the first four seeds are the division winners).

Yes, provided the clubs tied for the wild card are from the same division. The NFL's page on tiebreakers says the following on the matter of seeding the playoff qualifiers for match up purposes:

Originally Posted by National Football League

3. To determine home-field priority among division-titlists, apply Wild Card tie-breakers.
4. To determine home-field priority for Wild Card qualifiers, apply division tie-breakers (if teams are from the same division) or Wild Card tiebreakers (if teams are from different divisions).

[Ragnar]

The reason I am asking this is because team C swept team B during the season. But Team C lost the 3 team tie breaker for the division.

So am I to assume if another team from a different Div also had a tie then team C would beat out team B? But not if it is only between team B and C in the same Div?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I have a tie breaker question. Lets say 3 teams are tied for the division win. The first three tie breakers are....

Best won loss tie % in games among the clubs
Best won loss tied % in division games.
Best won loss tie % in common games.

The teams are 2-2 in the first. Team A and team B are tied for best Div record while team C has an inferior Div record. The exact same scenario plays out for the 3rd tie breaker.

Originally Posted by Ragnar

The reason I am asking this is because team C swept team B during the season. But Team C lost the 3 team tie breaker for the division.

So am I to assume if another team from a different Div also had a tie then team C would beat out team B? But not if it is only between team B and C in the same Div?

Based on my reading of the rules, and the descriptions of the tiebreakers used to sort out the standings in the 2002 NFLseason (which featured a three-way tie for the AFC East, with those three teams being tied with two clubs outside the division for the second wild card spot, all five teams having 9-7 records), this is what I think happens.

First, the division tie is settled. The teams have the following results in head-to-head play:

    A    B    C
----------------
A  ...  2-0  0-2
B  0-2  ...  2-0
C  2-0  0-2  ...
----------------
   2-2  2-2  2-2

Since the teams have the same combined head-to-head record, it moves to the next step, divisional record. Under that C is eliminated while A and B are tied with the same divisional record. The tiebreaking then reverts to the first step of the two-team procedure. That goes to B due to it having a better record in head-to-head games against A. So B is the division winner. (In post #5 you had A beat out B in the two-way tiebreaker, but that's not possible given what you have said about C having swept B during the regular season. The only way A, B, and C can be tied in combined head-to-head record—the first step of the three-way tiebreaker—is for the clubs to have the head-to-head records shown above. In which case B is the division winner, not A.)

Now the wild card is determined. A, C, and a club outside their division are tied for that. The first step there for a three-way tie is to use the division tiebreakers for clubs within the same division. Since A has a better head-to-head record against C, C is eliminated from contention (and gets third place in the division while A would be in second place). That leaves two teams—A and the club outside its division—tied for the wild card. The two-team method for wild card ties is then used, which starts with head-to-head record.

[jb28]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I have a tie breaker question. Lets say 3 teams are tied for the division win. The first three tie breakers are....

Best won loss tie % in games among the clubs
Best won loss tied % in division games.
Best won loss tie % in common games.

The teams are 2-2 in the first. Team A and team B are tied for best Div record while team C has an inferior Div record. The exact same scenario plays out for the 3rd tie breaker.

In the link is says this..... This seems to indicate I continue through the tie breakers even though Team C came out behind because I can only advance one team, not two. Do I have this right? I have a little football sim and this is my current problem.

NFL Tie-Breaking Procedures

You can't advance two teams directly to the playoffs, but you can advance two teams to the next tiebreaker step.

Determining the playoff seeds in each conference is a three stage process.
1. Determine the four division champions
2. Determine the two wildcard teams
3. Determine the playoff seedings

In stage one divisional tiebreakers are used until one team remains. In stage two ties between divisional teams are broken first, then ties between teams from different divisions.

So, in your example, teams A, B, and C have equal records in games between each other so all advance to the next step. In step two the best divisional record is shared by teams A, and B. Team C with an inferior divisional record is eliminated from the tiebreaker. Because a team has been eliminated the tiebreaker returns to step one, record in games between tied teams. In games between A and B that team B has the better record. Team B wins the tiebreaker and qualifies for the playoff as the divisional champion. Teams A and C still have a chance at the playoffs via the wildcards.

[jb28]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Now the wild card is determined. A, C, and a club outside their division are tied for that. The first step there for a three-way tie is to use the division tiebreakers for clubs within the same division. Since A has a better head-to-head record against C, C is eliminated from contention (and gets third place in the division while A would be in second place). That leaves two teams—A and the club outside its division—tied for the wild card. The two-team method for wild card ties is then used, which starts with head-to-head record.

That's correct. To take things further let's say the three teams are tied for the first wildcard spot. Only one team can advance to the playoffs at a time. After the first wildcard is decided the second wildcard will be decided in a tiebreaker between the two remaining tied teams.

[Ragnar]

Ok thanks. I think I have it. It was a procedural problem I was having.

LGO, this is what I said in post 5.

Lets say Team A beats out Team B for the Div

I did not even look at the two yet. It was just a hypothetical to answer the other question. A question I apparently never had to ask.