Spritze/Garlon DB

[changewand]

I tried what the previous poster suggested and it's now importing the db.

[plannine]

I've been playing around with this new DB for a few days now, and have a couple of issues on players/playing time. (5 tests playing with just 1901-1920)


>Rube Foster never lasts more then 5 or 6 years (using just AAA & ML).
He has 2 full good years in each test, 2 ok years, and the rest are part time at best.
Career estimates/length seem to be too low for him to.

>Both Babe Ruths (babe & george) enter as Pitchers. One turns into a hitter while the other one dies off.....shouldnt the Babe only be a hitter, and George a pitcher. Also shouldn't George have a estimated career of his non-pitching years?

>A couple of the other negro league players seem to fall off quickly after a few years, while still young. Might be just bad luck (havent looked into the DB numbers on them, since it is different players each time)

>I keep hoping Cy (Young) would last more then a couple of years. Never happens (Rarely happens with the other db'S either.)

Still, it still seems to be very close overall, for the time period being played, and look forward to the next 20 years.

[Spritze]

Back in the US, just need to get from NY to home and then I'll get to work on version 2.

The Negro (and Japanese) Leaguers in the current version are just an add-on after the fact. In the next version they will be included from the beginning in the hope that this will make them play out more realistically.

The Negro leagues were very high scoring so converting batters to a 4.63 run environment takes a lot of the air out of their stats.

[No Pepper]

Are we to use park factors when using this database? That is, to setup parks differently rather than use a park-neutral universe? May be a dumb question but I'll ask it!

[Spritze]

No Pepper: This is a park neutral db but you can use park factors in your universe if you wish.

Plannine: Any idea what further adjustments should be made to get Cy Young up to snuff? I notice a similar thing with Warren Spahn. In his case his stuff rating appears too low and if I up it manually his career falls into line. I think it may be similar to Mr. Youngs challenge. I am wondering if the factors that make up the stuff rating should not be altered to create more spread between good stuff and mediocre stuff. It doesn't take much of a change to get Spahn to have his career. He is on the high side of mediocre but there are a lot of pitchers close to there. If I get him on the low side of good stuff he fares much better.

[Spritze]

I am going to do for the players that are split in two (like Mr. Ruth) the same as for the Negro leaguers. I am planning to include them at the beginning of the process rather than the end and therefore the pitcher Ruth will get a much longer career (1914 to 1933).

[plannine]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Plannine: Any idea what further adjustments should be made to get Cy Young up to snuff? I notice a similar thing with Warren Spahn. In his case his stuff rating appears too low and if I up it manually his career falls into line. I think it may be similar to Mr. Youngs challenge. I am wondering if the factors that make up the stuff rating should not be altered to create more spread between good stuff and mediocre stuff. It doesn't take much of a change to get Spahn to have his career. He is on the high side of mediocre but there are a lot of pitchers close to there. If I get him on the low side of good stuff he fares much better.

In a few test runs, the only way i've found with Cy is to reduce his age!!! Make him 10 years younger, and he seems stay a top pitcher for the whole decade. but not The Top Pitcher......

Many of the pitchers who do well after age 35, fail in OOTP (Niekro, Hough, Ryan, Plank, Wilhelm) in their careers. While Nolan Ryan gets near his numbers in total, usually (for me), most of the great seasons will be bunched together, and better then his actual season totals and he rarely last past 1988. Rich Reuschel is usually gone years before his final season.

I would think Clemens, Randy Johnson and Jamie Moyer would do the same in modern years.

[plannine]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I am going to do for the players that are split in two (like Mr. Ruth) the same as for the Negro leaguers. I am planning to include them at the beginning of the process rather than the end and therefore the pitcher Ruth will get a much longer career (1914 to 1933).

I duplicated Ruths first 6 years (over the next 12) which seemed to give him a very good career as a pitcher....maybe a bit too good. But it gave me stats I could live with.

[dcundy]

I have been working on what I call the condensed version of MLB. I used the random db creator but instead of randomly assigning debut years. I took the actual debut years of players from 1871-2006 and condensed it down to 1891-1931. This allows some of the old school guys to get into the action, ie. Tommy Bond, Cap Anson and the like. They debut at 26-30 years of age instead of 18-21 like most rookies because the league starts with 1901. For me this gives them a place in the timeline of the game if you will but not with some of the inflated numbers produced. Anyway I also condensed the era_stats and era_modifiers database files as well as the teams.csv file. for instance what was in real life 1922 is my 1909. This gives me the changes in team names, stadiums, and moves to new cities as well as expansion all within some 40 years or so of simming. All that said I have also split the Babe into two, George (pitcher) and Babe (batter). As well as some Negro players ie. Martin Dihigo. Seems to work so far.

I love the fact that this years draft (1909) class included: Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Paige, Simmons, Hubbell and Klein. And that last years HR champion was Mule Suttles. I had a blast going to the web and finding some quotes to paste into my own news articles. Things like the 50 once bat used and his legendary long balls.

I have a Question: what is meant by this line?

The Negro leagues were very high scoring so converting batters to a 4.63 run environment takes a lot of the air out of their stats.

How will this effect the Negro players current db stats? For instance Mule Suttles and Satchel Paige not to mention Rube Foster my current strikeout king.

Anyway having some good simmin fun with db thanks Spritze and Garlon again for your hard work.

[Spritze]

"The Negro leagues were very high scoring so converting batters to a 4.63 run environment takes a lot of the air out of their stats."
The negro leagues averaged 5.05 runs per game rather than 4.63. So the simple way to look at is their raw stats are about 10% off standard. A .400 negro league hitter would hit merely .360 or so in the bigs by that reckoning. I made an additional adjustment for the strength of the league vs the majors as well. I did this by comparing the major league and negro league rates of players who played in both leagues. For the older players especially the 1800's guys I compared major to minor to negro leagues to get this adjustment as a few negro leaguers played in the "white" minors but not in the majors.

"How will this effect the Negro players current db stats? For instance Mule Suttles and Satchel Paige not to mention Rube Foster my current strikeout king."
This has already been adjusted so there will be no change.

[Nukester]

How does this effect the leaderboards ? Wont the players that start the league from the initial creation have wonky past stats ?

When you start a league, you have the option of importing history up to that point, or no league history. Lets say Im starting in 1903 (because thats where I usually start). I can either import with past history, which shows guys that are already retired like Hugh Duffy as leaders, or I can import with no history, with which guys like Willie Keeler lose all of their past career stats when it comes to the leaderboard (only shows stats accumulated in the new league), so they wont show up. I usually import past history, so I get the players in the leaderboards, but then I erase all league history, so it looks like a new league, but anyone that had past stats gets credit for those in the leaderboards

What Id like to do is modify the database and remove any player (and his stats) that did not play in 1903 or later BUT keep the pre-new league stats (1902 and earlier) for anyone that did play in 1903 or later. This would get rid of Duffy but keep Keeler and his past stats. Thats not a problem as I have the queries already done.

My question comes in with the players from 1903 (the year of the import). Wont they all have inflated stats, which would effect the accuracy of the leaderboards ?

[Nukester]

After I typed that out and thought about it, I think I know the solution. I could delete anything from 1902 and earlier from your db and copy/paste the real stats in from the Lahman db. Then when I import 1903 from your db, I will get the correct real past stats, but use your ratings from 1903 on. Does that sound correct ?

[Spritze]

This db contains no real stats as every player season has been altered to a 4.63 run environment and upped to a 162 game season.

Therefore all the stats are "wonky".

So your leaderboards would not reflect "real" baseball at all. Some players might lose ground and some might gain due to the 4.63 runs per game adjustment. Everyone would gain due to the 162 game adjustment.

You wrote:
"After I typed that out and thought about it, I think I know the solution. I could delete anything from 1902 and earlier from your db and copy/paste the real stats in from the Lahman db. Then when I import 1903 from your db, I will get the correct real past stats, but use your ratings from 1903 on. Does that sound correct ? " Yes it does.

[Nukester]

After looking at the leaderboards, I see what the deal was. The guys that showed up on the leaderboard but were not in my league were all players that played previous to 1903 and after 1903, but did not play in 1903 (Hugh Duffy and Sam Thompson come to mind)

Copying and pasting the stats from the years previous to the import year should be ok in order to make the leaderboards more correct, as long as you arent using the "entire career" options for potential. Then I dont know how it would end up, but I imagine the potentials wouldnt be off by very much, if at all.

Thanks a million for the new database !

[dcundy]

I am working with the db and condensed the debut years from 1871-2006 to 1901-1925. I have had pretty good success with the adjustments I made but there is one thing that is somewhat bothersome. I have many players who don't develop into major leagers and therefore retire before their time at say 25 years old or so ie. Josh Gibson retired at 25 years, Satchel Paige, and Sandy Koufax just to name a few. It seems they don't develop fast enough to make it to the majors. I am thinking because I adjusted their debut dates. Is there a field in the db that determines their retirement date?
One more question, does anyone have a good idea how to end a career historical sim? I am in my last year of rookies and will no longer draft new players into the game. I have plenty of free agents to pick up once the current players retire. I don't want to add any ficticious players but I do want players like Barry Bonds to play out his entire career. I thought once the free agents list gets down to slim pickings I would desolve a few franchises. Any ideas would be appreciated.

[Nukester]

Originally Posted by dcundy

I am working with the db and condensed the debut years from 1871-2006 to 1901-1925. I have had pretty good success with the adjustments I made but there is one thing that is somewhat bothersome. I have many players who don't develop into major leagers and therefore retire before their time at say 25 years old or so ie. Josh Gibson retired at 25 years, Satchel Paige, and Sandy Koufax just to name a few. It seems they don't develop fast enough to make it to the majors. I am thinking because I adjusted their debut dates. Is there a field in the db that determines their retirement date?
One more question, does anyone have a good idea how to end a career historical sim? I am in my last year of rookies and will no longer draft new players into the game. I have plenty of free agents to pick up once the current players retire. I don't want to add any ficticious players but I do want players like Barry Bonds to play out his entire career. I thought once the free agents list gets down to slim pickings I would desolve a few franchises. Any ideas would be appreciated.

There is a "finale" year in the master file of the database, but Im not sure if thats used or not. I would think the game uses birthdate and the last few seasons in the batter/pitcher/fielding files. At least Ive never heard of the finale field being important before, and Im pretty sure its not even in some of the older databases. If its used, I think this would be the first version that used that field (maybe 2006)

[Spritze]

OOTP currently does not use the finale data for nuthin.

[QuestGAV]

Is there any easy way to use your DB to produce modern-MLB like statistics through the whole of baseball history? I've thought of using the league total modifiers after each season to get things where I want them but that seems rather labor intensive.

[Spritze]

Just adjust this file so every years numbers are the same as the one you want to recreate and viola! OOTP will create a universe that does what you are wishing it to do automagically.

[QuestGAV]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Just adjust this file so every years numbers are the same as the one you want to recreate and viola! OOTP will create a universe that does what you are wishing it to do automagically.

Unfortunately, because of the way league totals work this does not work... I think I have to do some math and change them in the inverse direction in order to get what I want.