Baseball rule question

[Tram2Whitaker]

What I think is happening, is a misplaced bit of code. It happens sometimes in video games. I have had saves, that weren't credited as saves, on multiple occasions through multiple iterations of OOTP. I wouldn't expect someone to comb through all that code to find out where a minor bug like that would be.

[zappa1]

I've seen this for awhile, now. Probably a few versions ago. I found out kinda by accident as I just wanted to put the next pitcher in before he got tired in the pen warming up. A little corner cutting you might say. I figured if I put him in NOW, he'd be in when the start of the next inning started. Save me a step. Then I saw the box score at the end of the game and they gave the win to this pitcher instead of my starter. I knew right away what happened. You can't change pitchers when you are AB or this is what will happen. An error message should come up saying just that, "you can't change pitchers while your at bat". But this is a suggestion and you have to run it by the suggestion police, first.
Anyway, I use this from time to time on purpose, now. If I feel my starting pitcher doesn't deserve all the runs my team is scoring to get him off the "hook", I'll put the next pitcher in just so he doesn't get a win that I don't think he deserves. It's really funny. It's like the manager saying to the starting pitcher, that's what you get for stinkin' the place out. You don't deserve to win this game. I get a big kick out of it. hahaha

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Tram2Whitaker

What I think is happening, is a misplaced bit of code. It happens sometimes in video games. I have had saves, that weren't credited as saves, on multiple occasions through multiple iterations of OOTP. I wouldn't expect someone to comb through all that code to find out where a minor bug like that would be.

Not really. Matt Arnold went into the logic, which is that the game grants the victory to whoever's in the game at pitcher when the score changes. In real life, the previous guy should still get the win but in real life nobody announces a pitching change until they absolutely have to. What if that announcement causes a team to save a player as a pinch hitter instead of using them as a defensive replacement? What if the game situation changes and you don't want to use your setup guy anymore? The rules do say that once announced a pitcher has to face at least one batter.

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[OldFatGuy]

OOTP got it right it sounds like. If the OP "replaced" the pitcher in the bottom of the sixth before they took the lead, then he indeed was the "pitcher of record" when the lead changed and gets the win. It matters not whether he has pitched to anyone yet or not. A pitcher becomes the "pitcher of record" the minute he is placed in that spot on the official LINEUP CARD that the umpire keeps. Just like a pinch hitter enters the game when announced and is used up whether he actually pinch hits or not.

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The only other thing we could do would be to literally prevent you from actually dragging the pitcher to the spot or setting someone as the new pitcher while you're batting, but not sure if that would actually be a better thing to handle or people would just be frustrated by the change.

I've supported this idea for a very long time.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

A pitcher becomes the "pitcher of record" the minute he is placed in that spot on the official LINEUP CARD that the umpire keeps.

Nope.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

A player who is inserted into the official lineup card is nothing but a pinch-hitter unless and until he takes the field. All of the runs scored by a team in an inning are credited to the last pitcher who threw a pitch. OOTP, in other words, gets it wrong in this situation.

This is, in fact, nothing new. The most common example I can think of is when a pitcher is injured on the last defensive play of an inning. OOTP immediately replaces the pitcher with a reliever, even though there's no need to name a new pitcher until the next defensive half-inning. So, for instance, with the scored tied and Pitcher A, the starting pitcher, on the mound, he pitches the top half of the eighth inning and is injured on the last play. OOTP immediately replaces Pitcher A with Pitcher B, a middle reliever. The home team then takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning. OOTP then replaces Pitcher B with Pitcher C, the team's closer. Pitcher C pitches a scoreless ninth inning. Who gets the win? According to OOTP, it's Pitcher B, even though he never threw a pitch.


The problem here and in the original post is that OOTP immediately replaces a pitcher with a reliever when that pitcher is removed from the game. I'm not sure how complicated it would be to code things so that the game doesn't do that, but it must be a huge challenge because it has been a long-standing bug that just won't go away.

[Matt Arnold]

We no longer replace a pitcher immediately when hurt, so that shouldn't be a problem anymore. You can still manually do that if you're playing out a game, which is still the original problem.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Nope.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

A player who is inserted into the official lineup card is nothing but a pinch-hitter unless and until he takes the field. All of the runs scored by a team in an inning are credited to the last pitcher who threw a pitch. OOTP, in other words, gets it wrong in this situation.

This is, in fact, nothing new. The most common example I can think of is when a pitcher is injured on the last defensive play of an inning. OOTP immediately replaces the pitcher with a reliever, even though there's no need to name a new pitcher until the next defensive half-inning. So, for instance, with the scored tied and Pitcher A, the starting pitcher, on the mound, he pitches the top half of the eighth inning and is injured on the last play. OOTP immediately replaces Pitcher A with Pitcher B, a middle reliever. The home team then takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning. OOTP then replaces Pitcher B with Pitcher C, the team's closer. Pitcher C pitches a scoreless ninth inning. Who gets the win? According to OOTP, it's Pitcher B, even though he never threw a pitch.


The problem here and in the original post is that OOTP immediately replaces a pitcher with a reliever when that pitcher is removed from the game. I'm not sure how complicated it would be to code things so that the game doesn't do that, but it must be a huge challenge because it has been a long-standing bug that just won't go away.

It depends on what the manager tells the umpire. If the person is announced to the umpire as a pinch hitter, then he is a pinch hitter. If the manager announces he is REPLACING the current batter in the field as well, then that batter is marked as the, let's say second baseman, at that time, even though he hasn't taken the field. It's all up to the manager. If he announces a pitching change in between innings (which no manager IRL should ever do) then the umpire is obligated to enter that person into the game at that spot and he is in fact, used up. And if he happens to be a pitcher on the umpires lineup card when the lead changes, he is the pitcher of record.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

It depends on what the manager tells the umpire. If the person is announced to the umpire as a pinch hitter, then he is a pinch hitter. If the manager announces he is REPLACING the current batter in the field as well, then that batter is marked as the, let's say second baseman, at that time, even though he hasn't taken the field. It's all up to the manager. If he announces a pitching change in between innings (which no manager IRL should ever do) then the umpire is obligated to enter that person into the game at that spot and he is in fact, used up. And if he happens to be a pitcher on the umpires lineup card when the lead changes, he is the pitcher of record.

That's simply not true. The official scorer decides who is the pitcher of record, not the manager and not the umpire. And the scoring rules are very clear: the pitcher who completed the previous half-inning gets credit for all of the runs scored by his team in its offensive half of the inning, even if the manager takes the pitcher out of the game during that half-inning.

I'm confident that I'm right. But if you can point me to a rule that supports your position, I'll be happy to revise my opinion.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

We no longer replace a pitcher immediately when hurt, so that shouldn't be a problem anymore. You can still manually do that if you're playing out a game, which is still the original problem.

Glad to hear it. When did that happen?

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Glad to hear it. When did that happen?

OOTP 19.

And furthermore, the most recent patch cleaned up an issue in non-DH games where you were forced to insert a pitcher if the pitcher’s spot came up in the next half inning.


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[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

That's simply not true. The official scorer decides who is the pitcher of record, not the manager and not the umpire. And the scoring rules are very clear: the pitcher who completed the previous half-inning gets credit for all of the runs scored by his team in its offensive half of the inning, even if the manager takes the pitcher out of the game during that half-inning.

I'm confident that I'm right. But if you can point me to a rule that supports your position, I'll be happy to revise my opinion.

OK, my bad. Sorry for misinterpreting the rule.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by slugga27

OOTP 19.

And furthermore, the most recent patch cleaned up an issue in non-DH games where you were forced to insert a pitcher if the pitcher’s spot came up in the next half inning.


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It was really only in 20 that we did the final step so that even the AI won't replace guys right away, and to do more proper handling checks now. I know there's still some cases that we have to sub earlier (if the DH gets hurt, the AI can't build a lineup with an empty spot in it, so they will sub in someone there immediately after the half-inning), but we tried hard to plug all the other holes to let things happen only when they need it to happen.

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

It was really only in 20 that we did the final step so that even the AI won't replace guys right away, and to do more proper handling checks now. I know there's still some cases that we have to sub earlier (if the DH gets hurt, the AI can't build a lineup with an empty spot in it, so they will sub in someone there immediately after the half-inning), but we tried hard to plug all the other holes to let things happen only when they need it to happen.

Oh wow. I thought this was in OOTP 19. I guess I’ve lost track of time because I spend so much of it playing OOTP...


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[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by slugga27

Oh wow. I thought this was in OOTP 19. I guess I’ve lost track of time because I spend so much of it playing OOTP...


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I think we did get some of this into 19 where you didn't need to replace your pitcher, but the AI still always immediately replaced everyone when playing things out. It was only in 20 that the AI fully utilized this situation.

[Questdog]

Just for the record, JoefromChicago is right on this one, 100%. But Matt is also right that it is not worth the trouble to code it 100% properly. There is NO reason to put a pitcher in the lineup while your team is on offense. Except to mess up the stats, of course.....

[bwburke94]

We need to make the game idiot-proof... plus it matches real MLB rules, more or less. Don't allow a pitcher to be inserted, nor a player's position to be manually changed, while their team is at bat.

(This also closes some of the DH forfeiture bugs, if they haven't already been patched.)

[jmolony3]

I think the game should credit the win to the pitcher who was on the mound in the top of the inning when their team takes the lead in the bottom of the inning, regardless of whether or not you have selected a new pitcher to take the mound in the next inning. I found this description at baseball-reference on pitcher of record.

The pitcher of record is the pitcher who is in position to receive credit for his team's win or loss. In general, the pitcher of record is whichever pitcher was in the game at the time that the lead changed, but there are three exceptions:

A pitcher is liable for every runner who he allows on base, and can be charged with a loss if a runner he allowed on base scores the go-ahead run while a subsequent reliever is on the mound. This applies even if the baserunner he allowed is erased by a fielder's choice: the runner now on base as a result of this play is still the responsibility of the original pitcher, even though he never faced him as a batter. This is analogous to the process for charging pitchers with earned runs.
A pitcher receives credit for all the runs that his team scores in a half inning in which he is replaced by a pinch hitter or pinch runner. Since no new pitcher has been put into the game, the most recent pitcher receives the credit.
A pitcher who is judged to be ineffective, either by failing to pitch 5 innings as a starting pitcher or being ineffective in a brief appearance as a reliever, but is bailed out by his team's good offense does not receive credit for a win even though he is the pitcher of record when his team takes the lead. The win is then credited to the pitcher judged by the official scorer to have made the biggest contribution to his team's victory, either because of pitching a longish stint with no or few runs allowed, or by getting an out at a key moment of the game.


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[Questdog]

In real life you cannot put a pitcher in the lineup while your team is at bat, so why should OOTP allow it? In real life, if you put someone who is normally a pitcher into the lineup, he is not a pitcher, but a pinch-hitter....He does not become a pitcher until the team takes the field. Same for any position.

If it is easy to program that you cannot set the position of ANY player while your team is on offense, I would be all for that.. Not only is it a problem with pitchers' wns, but games played at positions for players that never actually take the field...

[jmolony3]

I agree in my mind you are telling the game and the pitcher that they are done for the night Until a new pitcher steps on the mound they are not in the game.


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