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Old 09-27-2013, 08:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukasberger View Post
Nah, that's apparently how we have them rated in the db. I dunno why, it's totally wrong. Someone screwed up the ratings. I'm going to change that right now.
Well now. This is why these forums are awesome. Good catch, X3.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:58 PM   #22
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So, Lukasberger and company...


What have you guys settle for in editing Pedroia and Kinsler?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by X3NEIZE View Post
How is that relevant? that just shows numbers, does it take into account the velocity of the ball and the base runners ability? All you have to do is watch him turn insanely impossible DP. What Cano does Pedroia and Kinsler cannot do.
Come back when you understand sabermetrics.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 09-27-2013, 09:24 PM   #24
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Come back when you understand sabermetrics.
excuse me for having a different opinion then you sir!
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by X3NEIZE View Post
excuse me for having a different opinion then you sir!
Learn to look at the numbers and not the field. Your eyes will lie to you. Hard data doesn't.

I don't have an "opinion." I have data.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 09-27-2013, 09:47 PM   #26
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I don't have an "opinion." I have data.
You two have different "opinions" on how much data matters vs. subjective evaluation.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:54 PM   #27
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If we're going exactly by what the game says, let's just say there's no chance Jay-Z gets him that $305mil contract. In the game he seems to get in the 100-150 range.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X3NEIZE View Post
So, Lukasberger and company...


What have you guys settle for in editing Pedroia and Kinsler?
Kinsler:

range: 170 to 145

dp 166 to 146

Pedroia:

range: 180 to 149

Cano:

no changes


That's just a quick and dirty fix based off my gut impressions. I haven't compared ratings or fielding metrics to see where that puts them compared to all other 2Bmen.

I'm going to suggest to haveband that sometime between now and beta that the roster team take a look at all the 2b and SS fielding ratings and see if anything else needs fixing. Maybe we'll even try to take a look at coming up with some kind of fielding ratings matrix. No promises, there's a lot on our plate so it may not happen, but it'd be nice if we could squeeze it in.

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 09-27-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:04 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
You two have different "opinions" on how much data matters vs. subjective evaluation.
That's not subject to opinion. There are these things called science and mathematics.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:09 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
That's not subject to opinion.
Sure it is.

Even the biggest proponents of fielding metrics admit that they're unsure just how accurate they are at this point in time. Even among card carrying sabr guys, some view certain fielding metrics as gospel, some mix in a heavy dose of Tango's crowdsource fielding ratings and some still feel that there's a need to rely on their gut to supplement and modify what the metrics tell them given the clear issues with the metrics.

Maybe one day they'll get the metrics to the point where we can say they're perfectly accurate mathematically and scientifically, but we certainly aren't there yet.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
That's not subject to opinion. There are these things called science and mathematics.
Actually, it is. Someone can consider a player to be one of the best fielders because he makes flashy plays, while someone else can consider that player to not even be in the top 10 because that's where his ZR or DWAR puts him. And vice versa.

There's no arguing that statistically, Cano pales in comparison to Pedroia. But X3 isn't basing his argument off of statistics, so you're comparing apples and oranges. The two of you are evaluating players in different ways.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:16 PM   #32
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Free lesson on what fools who rely on their eyeballs think versus hard data. In 2010, Derek Jeter won the AL shortstop Gold Glove. Data established that he was the second worst defensive shortstop (100+ games) in the game. (Best defensive shortstops in 2010 » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive)

But almost everyone who watched him play saw him make marvelous plays. What they didn't see was that he had almost no range.

Never rely on your eyeballs; you're a bad witness. Get the facts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukasberger View Post
Sure it is.

Even the biggest proponents of fielding metrics admit that they're unsure just how accurate they are at this point in time. Even among card carrying sabr guys, some view certain fielding metrics as gospel, some mix in a heavy dose of Tango's crowdsource fielding ratings and some still feel that there's a need to rely on their gut to supplement and modify what the metrics tell them given the clear issues with the metrics.

Maybe one day they'll get the metrics to the point where we can say they're perfectly accurate mathematically and scientifically, but we certainly aren't there yet.
You missed the point completely. Science, facts and math trump eyeball-based opinions every time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:19 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
Actually, it is. Someone can consider a player to be one of the best fielders because he makes flashy plays, while someone else can consider that player to not even be in the top 10 because that's where his ZR or DWAR puts him. And vice versa.

There's no arguing that statistically, Cano pales in comparison to Pedroia. But X3 isn't basing his argument off of statistics, so you're comparing apples and oranges. The two of you are evaluating players in different ways.
People can consider that the moon is made out of green cheese. That just makes them fools. Science knows better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Free lesson on what fools who rely on their eyeballs think versus hard data. In 2010, Derek Jeter won the AL shortstop Gold Glove. Data established that he was the second worst defensive shortstop (100+ games) in the game. (Best defensive shortstops in 2010 » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive)

But almost everyone who watched him play saw him make marvelous plays. What they didn't see was that he had almost no range.

Never rely on your eyeballs; you're a bad witness. Get the facts.
Agreed on Jeter. I never understood why people thought Jeter could field at all. Even to the naked eye he didn't show much range. All his "marvelous plays" were because he took one step, then dove. That was his range, a step and a dive. And I actually like Jeter a lot. My brother and I always liked Jeter, but even when he first came up, neither of us could understand why people thought he was a good fielder. He just wasn't/isn't.

The issue there wasn't eyeballs so much as people trying to build a mythology and then believing their own hype. That being said it is bad to rely entirely on eyeballs.

But to refer to the current generation of fielding metrics as facts shows a woeful lack of understanding of their limitations. Limitations which even their creators acknowledge and are trying to deal with.

Fielding metrics right now are just as much art as they are science. That will change in the future as more data becomes available and folks come up with better ways to interpret the data they already have. But for now, they're the best way to measure fielding we have, but they're still sadly limited.

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 09-28-2013 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:26 PM   #36
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You missed the point completely. Science, facts and math trump eyeball-based opinions every time.
You're right, so far as it goes. Science, facts and math trump do trump eyeball-based opinions.

But you kind of missed the point of my reply, so far as that goes. The issue is in your calling the current generation of fielding metrics "facts".

They aren't. They're still a limited, imperfect way of measuring fielding. Are they better than gut feelings? Yes. But they have a long way to go before anyone can accurately claim that they're gospel truth.

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:27 PM   #37
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Talking

I'm going to stop now. I get angry arguing with Luddites, people who believe in fairies, and those who value what their eyes see over actual hard facts, math and science.

If you know any prosecutors, ask them how reliable eyewitness testimony actually is. You'll be surprised at the answer.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:34 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by X3NEIZE View Post
Thanks guys, I didn't have much to go on but compare Cano to Kinsler and Pedroia and the gap was just insane.... I'll lower Pedroia and Kinsler, however, there's no better 2nd baseman turning in a DP than Robbie..... I may be delusional but to me he's the best in the game at that.
not true IRL this year.
Cano 152 G 86 DP
Kinsler 120 G 84 DP
Pedroia 158 G 101 DP

Cano does have the edge in career DP playing one more season then the other 2 874 - 747 - 621.
Pedroia has the best fld % at .991 Cano .986, Kinsler .978


My question is you are going to lower the range of Pedroia and Kinsler, are you going to up their arms? Pedroia will become a 1B/DH with less range.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:35 PM   #39
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I'm going to stop now. I get angry arguing with Luddites, people who believe in fairies, and those who value what their eyes see over actual hard facts, math and science.
Way to completely ignore every one of my pertinent points and to respond with a strawman.

I agree with you, hard facts, math and science are better than the eyes.

I personally, along with many other serious followers of sabermetrics, as believers in hard facts and science, disagree with your naive and credulous assessment of current fielding metrics as being infallible, or as you state it, "facts". They aren't. There are still a lot of bugs and contradictions to be worked out of the current generation of fielding metrics. They are not entirely accurate and in some cases are in fact woefully inaccurate.

This has been discussed at great length by many of the top minds in the baseball analytics field.

You're absolutely right in your general statements on math and science versus eyeballs and gut feelings. You just don't seem to understand the very real issues with current fielding metrics and why they can't truly be viewed as comprehensive at this time, even by those who believe in and create them.

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:43 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Free lesson on what fools who rely on their eyeballs think versus hard data. In 2010, Derek Jeter won the AL shortstop Gold Glove. Data established that he was the second worst defensive shortstop (100+ games) in the game. (Best defensive shortstops in 2010 » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive)

But almost everyone who watched him play saw him make marvelous plays. What they didn't see was that he had almost no range.

Never rely on your eyeballs; you're a bad witness. Get the facts.
Wilson had 20 E in 98 Games, Jeter 9 in 151. Wilson plays 53 more games and would have had close to 40 E. How is that abetter SS even with more TC, PO & A? I'll take the guy with less range and fewer E.
Can you, or anyone else tell me which costs a team more, lack of range or E?
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