Simple ball flight

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

No, I don't think it was.

What don't you like about facegen?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by David Watts

What don't you like about facegen?

The question I was answering was "Was all the effort that went into implementing FaceGen 'worth it'?" I would much have rather seen that time and effort devoted to improving the simulation instead.

I'm here for the baseball, not for any eye candy. If I want eye candy I'll fire up the PlayStation and the big TV.

[mculberson1973]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Cool... find me an investor with $5m in the pocket and I'll make that happen.

What about Curt Schilling? Oh wait...nevermind

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

The question I was answering was "Was all the effort that went into implementing FaceGen 'worth it'?" I would much have rather seen that time and effort devoted to improving the simulation instead.

I'm here for the baseball, not for any eye candy. If I want eye candy I'll fire up the PlayStation and the big TV.

I'm not an eye candy guy myself, but I love Facegen. I love what it adds to the game. That being said, I doubt I would ever use ball flight and or any form of graphics. I play out my games, but I do so very fast. The short play by play-instant was one of the best things Markus ever introduced to OOTP. Since then, I have read very little pbp. I simply read the play result. I think things like Facegen, logos, uniforms, and stadium pics bring life to a simulation, so I can see why people would feel the same way about graphics/ball flight.

One thing that I find interesting is the fact that so few people seem interested in bringing to life fictional stadiums. When playing out a game, wouldn't it be great to actually know the dimensions of the stadium the game is being played in? Wall height? Foul territory? I myself would rather have a infield/outfield plat or diagram with field dimensions instead of a stadium pic. It could be similar to what's on the webcast(non widget screen) but bigger so the base runners and infielders don't mesh together. A small widget box could also be used to bring forth the characteristics of the park.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

No, I don't think it was.

You don't think it was worth it FOR YOU or for OOTP as a whole (i.e. garnering more interest in the game, etc.)?

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Bobble

You don't think it was worth it FOR YOU or for OOTP as a whole (i.e. garnering more interest in the game, etc.)?

Not answering for Wolf (but would be easy to at this point), but if you look over in the mods section, you can see just how many members here love the facegen feature and how much it adds enjoyment to their experience.

Well worth it in my opinion. Oh, and in Wolf's case where he is constantly concerned about the Text engine "suffering", I'm pretty sure Markus had little to no coding involvement with facegen. That has Andreas and Aurelio's names all over it.

OOTP is already the best text sim on the market IMO, there are no more big steps to take it to the next level in that department, just everyones own little pet projects they want done.

To think Markus isn't going to want to eventually (he already said he wants to so its moot) expand his game and bring in more of an audience is foolhardy, yup, foolhardy

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

The question I was answering was "Was all the effort that went into implementing FaceGen 'worth it'?" I would much have rather seen that time and effort devoted to improving the simulation instead.

I'm here for the baseball, not for any eye candy. If I want eye candy I'll fire up the PlayStation and the big TV.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Andreas handle the Face Gen integration? If that's the case I'm sure very little was taken away from improving the simulation engine.

[Syd Thrift]

I am a pretty big stats guy myself but I love the crap out of Facegen. Eye candy or no, it really adds to the immersion factor, particularly with fictional leagues.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Andreas handle the Face Gen integration? If that's the case I'm sure very little was taken away from improving the simulation engine.

Andreas could have been working on something simulation-related instead.

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It is a slippery slope. Once graphics has its head under the tent suddenly the number one demand becomes and stays better graphics.

I wasn't completely sold on your argument until you posted this. In my opinion you are absolutely right that this would happen. I'm on the no graphics side now.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Bobble

You don't think it was worth it FOR YOU or for OOTP as a whole (i.e. garnering more interest in the game, etc.)?

My views are clearly different than yours. I want OOTP to the best and most accurate baseball simulation that it can be - not the prettiest, not the most immersive, but the best and most accurate - and to me, that means that every bit of effort should be put into making the simulation better, faster, more accurate, etc.

Clearly some of you feel differently. But Oman19 stated the position of my side of the argument very clearly.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Reggie

I wasn't completely sold on your argument until you posted this. In my opinion you are absolutely right that this would happen. I'm on the no graphics side now.

It's inevitable and it always happens. Welcome to the text side.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by oman19

They only have a very limited number of people working on OOTP. The opportunity cost of trying to work on something like this can't help but hinder the progress of other features they could be working on.

Here's what he wrote. It's absolutely true.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

My views are clearly different than yours.

It was an honest question on whether you were speaking only for yourself or for OOTP in general. I haven't stated my views in this thread.

[Craig Scarborough]

I really wonder how much more Markus could add to the simulation piece, based on today's knowledge of the game. I mean, I guess he could add Pitch/FX or something like that...maybe?

Otherwise, a lot of what OOTP adds each year is just window-dressing on top of the game simulation that's already there (see the new playoff screen, for example). Markus constantly improves the trade AI, roster AI, etc., but I really doubt there's real payback there. Sure, people like to see these aspects improved, but short of injecting REAL GM personality code (beyond today's state-of-the-art AI in my opinion) Markus may actually be left with a very short list of real changes that he can make to the engine.

I'd love to hear from Wolf (and I'm being serious here) what major simulation additions Markus could make.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

My views are clearly different than yours. I want OOTP to the best and most accurate baseball simulation that it can be - not the prettiest, not the most immersive, but the best and most accurate - and to me, that means that every bit of effort should be put into making the simulation better, faster, more accurate, etc.

Clearly some of you feel differently. But Oman19 stated the position of my side of the argument very clearly.

Assuming you define the simulation/sim engine to be the part of the program that deals with stat output and player creation/development/aging then you're suggesting nothing else would ever take a moment of Markus' time.

I think that is an unreasonable view. Facegen, online leagues, the GUI and yes graphics like ball flight and ballpark photos would not get any attention. I think this is more likely to kill the game than Markus and crew dividing up time wisely to accomplish these other tasks

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You can feel insulted if you choose to, but no one was insulting you. It's just that Oman19 is correct about this, and more graphics effort automatically means less simulation effort.

Relative.

First; If Puresim could add an "arch" to the ball flight with their limited resources I have to believe the OOTP team can do so as well.

Second; OOTP is on it's 14th version and is lauded by many (you included) as the best text baseball game - period. I find it confusing we still feel like we have to micro-manage Markus' development time to direct his hours to "text only" improvements for a game that is already head-and-shoulders above anything else.

It just feels like insistence on all the effort going to text improvements suggests one is unhappy with the game as it stands.

Third; the worry that this game might be ultimately "ruined" by being turned into a platform game - to me - is premature. Markus has shown no sign of wanting that... is well aware he would lose most of his customer core if he did so... and we all know any serious attempt at graphics would have to be financed at a level not currently available to him.

Fourth; One of the things that makes OOTP so successful is the numerous ways it can be played. Fast seasonal - manager - commissioner - online - macro OR micro management. For any one type of player to deny another of embellishments to further their own use of the game would eventually result in shutting out part of the customer base - not a good thing for the game overall.

[The Wolf]

You on the always-vocal graphics side are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I and others do not agree with you.

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You on the always-vocal graphics side are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I and others do not agree with you.

Well that much is obvious, but you do sound as if you want the game only text based because it's the game you want - and have little concern for what other customers might like.

If ball flight is added with an on-off switch, how does that hurt you as a true text player? How does FaceGen effect you since you can turn it off as well? If I were to suggest that full on-field graphics be added with ball physics determining outcome - I could see your opposition to it; but I'm only asking that one current animation be replaced with another.

And as Craig asked, what is so missing from the OOTP text engine in the current version that we can't spend a little time looking into other areas of embellishments?

I can't help but feel your wrapping us Group #2 folks up with the Group #3 folks I defined earlier and saying no to everything and anything that is not text-based. If so, it's hard to see how your not limiting OOTP's future success by insisting it stay what you would have created rather than appealing to a wider audience.

Does the graphic enhancements to the UI and uniforms and ball field photos also detract from the full text experience? I'm asking only to find a "line of definition" as to what is too much in your world.

If I have your position defined correctly, I see OOTP as it looked in Version 3 with only the text engine improvements. If so, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree that that game would have been better than this one.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BigCity

Well that much is obvious, but you do sound as if you want the game only text based because it's the game you want - and have little concern for what other customers might like.

Now I found that to be really insulting.

Everybody wants the game they want, including you. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that your side's requests show zero concern for what I and others want, the best possible text-based sim. You demand eye candy and we disagree. But our motives are at least as pure and honest as yours are.

Can we please discuss the issue and not get personal about it? We disagree, that's all.