Best 2-way player I've seen yet

Cobby · 12-13-2019, 02:54 PM

This guy popped up in my fictional league. He's far and away the best two-way player I've seen yet. He's not on my team but I'm curious to see how the AI uses him. Last year he started 20 games as a pitcher for 5.2 WAR and 47 games as a position player. His batting WAR was 3.5 (but that would include his PAs as a pitcher too).

If you pro-rate that for say 33 starts as a pitcher and 160 games started as a position player, you get 8.84 WAR as a pitcher and 8.36 WAR as a position player. Very close!

Alas, there is no DH in my world.

How would you use him?

CBeisbol · 12-13-2019, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobby

How would you use him?

I don't have a lot of experience with two-way players do I don't know how they fatigue and how they need rest. Assuming they do need some,

I'd use him as a piggyback starter, since his stamina isn't great, going twice through the order (usually 4/5 innings) every 5th day. Then as a pinch hitter the day before and after his starts. And as an OFer the other days.

This would, of course, depend on the other players on my team.

Matt Arnold · 12-13-2019, 04:30 PM

No DH is what you want, since it means he bats on the games he pitches too. He's a lot like a right handed version of Ohtani, speed and power from a flamethrower.

Personally I'd just run him out there regularly on the mound, and then have him play LF the rest of the time. I'm not actually sure if he's better as a hitter than a pitcher, so using him that way should get him his 33 starts on the mound, and probably 100-120 games total as a hitter (including the 33 games as a SP). Let us know how they handle him and what his numbers come out to!

Cobby · 12-13-2019, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Personally I'd just run him out there regularly on the mound, and then have him play LF the rest of the time. I'm not actually sure if he's better as a hitter than a pitcher, so using him that way should get him his 33 starts on the mound, and probably 100-120 games total as a hitter (including the 33 games as a SP). Let us know how they handle him and what his numbers come out to!

It's early in the season and this is exactly how he's being handled. The pattern is:

1) Start as Pitcher
2) day off
3) Start as LF
4) Start as LF
5) Pinch hitter (day before start)

That seems quite realistic. I like how the AI knows that it's the day before a pitching start and puts him on light duty that day.

He's off to a blistering start as a pitcher: 7 complete games, 3 shutouts and one no-hitter in 8 starts. 7-1 record, 1.02 ERA, leading the league in strikeouts.

As a hitter, he's solid so far but not spectacular: 255/339/519 and 7 home runs. But it's only May 15th...

blink · 12-16-2019, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobby

This guy popped up in my fictional league. He's far and away the best two-way player I've seen yet. He's not on my team but I'm curious to see how the AI uses him. Last year he started 20 games as a pitcher for 5.2 WAR and 47 games as a position player. His batting WAR was 3.5 (but that would include his PAs as a pitcher too).

If you pro-rate that for say 33 starts as a pitcher and 160 games started as a position player, you get 8.84 WAR as a pitcher and 8.36 WAR as a position player. Very close!

Alas, there is no DH in my world.

How would you use him?

Curious why he is only rated as a 29 at the pitcher position? 78 at LF and 29 as pitcher seems a bit strange given his ratings and his stats as a pitcher so far....

BirdWatcher · 12-16-2019, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blink

Curious why he is only rated as a 29 at the pitcher position? 78 at LF and 29 as pitcher seems a bit strange given his ratings and his stats as a pitcher so far....

Pretty sure you are referring to position experience/defensive ratings. So it could just be that he isn't great at fielding his position and this positional rating will never be terribly high even with a lot of experience under his belt.
But doesn't have anything to do with his pitching skills, just his fielding skills as a pitcher.

ezpkns34 · 12-17-2019, 10:03 PM

Am I dumb for suggesting putting him at 1B instead of LF so there's less throwing from the OF and less risk of arm injury? Or is that more of a real world thing to worry about? Or nothing to worry about whatsoever either way?

Cobby · 01-03-2020, 11:38 PM

It's 12 seasons later and I thought I'd revisit Randy Craig. His ratings are slipping but he's still an amazing talent. But it's a sad tale of what might have been. He has been plagued by injuries:

1999: Oblique Strain, out 6 days
2000: Hamstring, out 6 weeks
2000: Sore Shoulder, out 7 weeks
2001: Foot contusion, out 1 week
2002: Torn Rotator Cuff, out 8-9 months
2003: Hamstring Strain, out 6 weeks
2003: Partially torn labrum, out 5 weeks
2004: Radial Nerve Compression, out 4-5 months
2004: Shoulder inflammation, out 5 weeks
2005: Fractured foot, out 3-4 weeks
2005: Elbow strain, out 2 months
2006: Torn Flexor tendon, out 14 months
2007: Severe Hip Strain, out 4-5 weeks
2007: Partially torn labrum, out 7-8 weeks
2009: Elbow inflammation, out 1 week
2009: Elbow strain, out 3 weeks
2009: Elbow inflammation, out 2 weeks
2009: Forearm stiffness, out 1 week
2010: partially torn labrum, out 4 months
2011: shoulder inflammation, out 6 months
2012: torn labrum, out 8 months

That's horrifying. And that doesn't even count a near constant stream of day-to-day injuries.

In 15 years he had only 3 more-or-less complete seasons: he started 32 games as a pitcher in 1999, 31 games in 2001 and 32 games in 2008. Those three seasons were excellent: 5.0, 9.6 and 6.0 WAR as a pitcher and 4.5, 5.1 and 7.3 has a hitter. Combined that's a 9.5 WAR season in 1999, a 14.7 (!) WAR season in 2001 and a 13.3 WAR season in 2008. He also had a 10.3 combined WAR in 2003 and started only 24 games. Extrapolated to 32 starts, that was on pace for a 13.7 WAR season. One can only imagine how good he would have been without all of the injuries.

Cobby · 01-03-2020, 11:59 PM

Here's another one that appeared a few years after Randy Craig. Ron Folden is slightly less of a talent, especially as a pitcher, than Randy Craig, but he has the huge advantage of durability (his injury rating has just this season dropped from "Durable" to "Normal"). He's been much more effective overall, putting up 5 straight 10+ combined WAR seasons, ranging from 10.3 WAR to 11.9 WAR. In contrast to Craig, he's never had a serious injury. There's a lesson there...

12-13-2019, 02:54 PM	#1
Cobby Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 252	Best 2-way player I've seen yet This guy popped up in my fictional league. He's far and away the best two-way player I've seen yet. He's not on my team but I'm curious to see how the AI uses him. Last year he started 20 games as a pitcher for 5.2 WAR and 47 games as a position player. His batting WAR was 3.5 (but that would include his PAs as a pitcher too). If you pro-rate that for say 33 starts as a pitcher and 160 games started as a position player, you get 8.84 WAR as a pitcher and 8.36 WAR as a position player. Very close! Alas, there is no DH in my world. How would you use him? Attached Images

01-03-2020, 11:38 PM	#8
Cobby Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 252	It's 12 seasons later and I thought I'd revisit Randy Craig. His ratings are slipping but he's still an amazing talent. But it's a sad tale of what might have been. He has been plagued by injuries: 1999: Oblique Strain, out 6 days 2000: Hamstring, out 6 weeks 2000: Sore Shoulder, out 7 weeks 2001: Foot contusion, out 1 week 2002: Torn Rotator Cuff, out 8-9 months 2003: Hamstring Strain, out 6 weeks 2003: Partially torn labrum, out 5 weeks 2004: Radial Nerve Compression, out 4-5 months 2004: Shoulder inflammation, out 5 weeks 2005: Fractured foot, out 3-4 weeks 2005: Elbow strain, out 2 months 2006: Torn Flexor tendon, out 14 months 2007: Severe Hip Strain, out 4-5 weeks 2007: Partially torn labrum, out 7-8 weeks 2009: Elbow inflammation, out 1 week 2009: Elbow strain, out 3 weeks 2009: Elbow inflammation, out 2 weeks 2009: Forearm stiffness, out 1 week 2010: partially torn labrum, out 4 months 2011: shoulder inflammation, out 6 months 2012: torn labrum, out 8 months That's horrifying. And that doesn't even count a near constant stream of day-to-day injuries. In 15 years he had only 3 more-or-less complete seasons: he started 32 games as a pitcher in 1999, 31 games in 2001 and 32 games in 2008. Those three seasons were excellent: 5.0, 9.6 and 6.0 WAR as a pitcher and 4.5, 5.1 and 7.3 has a hitter. Combined that's a 9.5 WAR season in 1999, a 14.7 (!) WAR season in 2001 and a 13.3 WAR season in 2008. He also had a 10.3 combined WAR in 2003 and started only 24 games. Extrapolated to 32 starts, that was on pace for a 13.7 WAR season. One can only imagine how good he would have been without all of the injuries. Attached Images

01-03-2020, 11:59 PM	#9
Cobby Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 252	Here's another one that appeared a few years after Randy Craig. Ron Folden is slightly less of a talent, especially as a pitcher, than Randy Craig, but he has the huge advantage of durability (his injury rating has just this season dropped from "Durable" to "Normal"). He's been much more effective overall, putting up 5 straight 10+ combined WAR seasons, ranging from 10.3 WAR to 11.9 WAR. In contrast to Craig, he's never had a serious injury. There's a lesson there... Attached Images

12-13-2019, 04:30 PM	#3
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 14,136	No DH is what you want, since it means he bats on the games he pitches too. He's a lot like a right handed version of Ohtani, speed and power from a flamethrower. Personally I'd just run him out there regularly on the mound, and then have him play LF the rest of the time. I'm not actually sure if he's better as a hitter than a pitcher, so using him that way should get him his 33 starts on the mound, and probably 100-120 games total as a hitter (including the 33 games as a SP). Let us know how they handle him and what his numbers come out to!

12-17-2019, 10:03 PM	#7
ezpkns34 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 693	Am I dumb for suggesting putting him at 1B instead of LF so there's less throwing from the OF and less risk of arm injury? Or is that more of a real world thing to worry about? Or nothing to worry about whatsoever either way?