Wild card weirdness

seven · 09-30-2013, 11:53 PM

At the end of a simulation of the 2013 season, two teams were tied for the NL central title, MIL and CIN (85 wins each), and these two teams were also tied for the second NL wild card spot. Two other teams were 1 game behind them in the wild card race at the end of the season (SF and PHI, 84 wins each). According to MLB tiebreaking rules, in this situation there should be a one-game playoff between MIL and CIN, with the winner taking the division title and the loser taking the second NL wild card spot. But instead, after the tiebreaker game (won by MIL), OOTP automatically scheduled a game between SF and PHI. So I ran that game, which SF won, and then SF was automatically scheduled to play CIN. That game was won by SF, and SF is now automatically scheduled to play in the NL wild card game and CIN is out. This does not seem to fit the tiebreaking rules, as PHI and SF ought to have been eliminated no matter the outcome of the CIN-MIL tiebreaker and no matter how the standings changed after that game. Have the MLB tiebreaking rules not been implemented correctly?

kq76 · 10-07-2013, 12:15 AM

Correct. Unfortunately, and to the chagrin of many of us, Markus does not seem to view tie-break methods as a priority. You'd think something as important as who makes the playoffs after a long season would be seen as critical, but I guess because it's fairly rare it's not.

The Wolf · 10-07-2013, 12:40 AM

This needs fixing in 15.

Le Grande Orange · 10-07-2013, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

Correct. Unfortunately, and to the chagrin of many of us, Markus does not seem to view tie-break methods as a priority. You'd think something as important as who makes the playoffs after a long season would be seen as critical, but I guess because it's fairly rare it's not.

^^^ This, unfortunately. I've been beating the drum about tiebreaking for a number of years now.

The Wolf · 10-07-2013, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

^^^ This, unfortunately. I've been beating the drum about tiebreaking for a number of years now.

Beat it louder and more often.

Le Grande Orange · 10-07-2013, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Beat it louder and more often.

I'm only one person. Having some drummers marching alongside might help.

kq76 · 10-07-2013, 02:43 AM

Which do you prefer?

Le Grande Orange · 10-07-2013, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

Which do you prefer?

More!

spitfire · 10-07-2013, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

This needs fixing in 15.

Why wait? I believe Markus said there would be one more patch for 14. Be swell if this could be addressed now instead of waiting for yet another version.

Orioles1966 · 10-07-2013, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

Correct. Unfortunately, and to the chagrin of many of us, Markus does not seem to view tie-break methods as a priority. You'd think something as important as who makes the playoffs after a long season would be seen as critical, but I guess because it's fairly rare it's not.

In the football game Second and Ten,there is an explanation for all tie-breakers in the standings at all times,so it would be cool too see this feature in the upcoming version of OOTP.

I had one tie-breaker game that made no sense. There was a total of only three tie breaker games for the season and one game had both teams (winning and losing team)advancing to the playoffs so I didn't see the need for that game to begin with.

as5680 · 10-07-2013, 06:57 AM

This definitely needs fixing - I raised a similar issue a few weeks ago after a bizarre single game play-off was scheduled in my AAA league and I didn't even notice at the time having been focused on the final week of the major league season.

In my case, there was a one-game play-off to decide a division but then a team from another division, who had finished one game behind the two teams in that tie, were gifted a play-off for the wild card which they won.

Clearly that should not have happened, and the team who lost their division in the first play-off were somewhat cheated out of the wild card.

I agree that something like making sure the correct teams make the play-offs is extremely important and 'unusual' tiebreaking situations will always happen from time to time.

I can appreciate that it is hard to envisage every possible scenario in advance but there is clearly an issue which occurs when teams which should have been eliminated end up within half a game of a team which has lost a single game play-off.

ajsas01 · 10-07-2013, 09:30 AM

Casting my vote...this needs fixing!

The Wolf · 10-07-2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm only one person. Having some drummers marching alongside might help.

Tell me when and where.

Fyrestorm3 · 10-07-2013, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spitfire

Why wait? I believe Markus said there would be one more patch for 14. Be swell if this could be addressed now instead of waiting for yet another version.

Coding tie-breakers is a big feature that would be much more suited to a new release than a patch. Patches are small updates that fix bugs; any new features introduced in them are generally very small (such as the recent change to a player's Game Log that lists the latest games first).

spitfire · 10-07-2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Coding tie-breakers is a big feature that would be much more suited to a new release than a patch. Patches are small updates that fix bugs; any new features introduced in them are generally very small (such as the recent change to a player's Game Log that lists the latest games first).

Yes, I understand how it works. But the tie-breaking thing IS a bug and one that should have been squashed long ago. Instead we keep hoping that maybe the next version will address it, but somehow it doesn't seem to happen. When you play an entire season only to see the wrong team in the playoffs, it's a pretty big deal. I'd like to see this looked at sooner rather than later, even if it's just a promise from Markus that this WILL finally be on the agenda for 15.

jaysdailydose · 10-07-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Coding tie-breakers is a big feature that would be much more suited to a new release than a patch. Patches are small updates that fix bugs; any new features introduced in them are generally very small (such as the recent change to a player's Game Log that lists the latest games first).

This is undoubtedly a bug when the wrong teams are getting assigned playoff spots...

I wouldn't think getting the right playoff teams in a baseball simulation would be considered a "new feature." Especially with all of the attention paid to the new wild-card system in the past two seasons, this is pretty important, I'd say.

olivertheorem · 10-07-2013, 08:53 PM

Does it count as a bug if the game is doing what it's supposed to do, given its current programming, even if the results don't jive with real-world tiebreaker rules? I don't think it does.

Programming gap/flaw, sure. But not a bug. A bug would be the game not working as designed.

Fyrestorm3 · 10-07-2013, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Does it count as a bug if the game is doing what it's supposed to do, given its current programming, even if the results don't jive with real-world tiebreaker rules? I don't think it does.

Programming gap/flaw, sure. But not a bug. A bug would be the game not working as designed.

This.

But also, I never said it didn't need fixing. Regardless of whether you consider it a "bug" or a "feature", programming in a tie-breaker just seems like too big of a project for a simple patch. For OOTP15, I'm all for it.

spitfire · 10-08-2013, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Does it count as a bug if the game is doing what it's supposed to do, given its current programming, even if the results don't jive with real-world tiebreaker rules? I don't think it does.

Programming gap/flaw, sure. But not a bug. A bug would be the game not working as designed.

Hypothetical case ..... suppose for whatever reason the game were programmed to pull every starting pitcher after two innings. It's designed to do that and so is working as intended. But if I'm testing the game, I'm gonna file that as a bug report. Clearly the game is getting it wrong, even if it's doing a marvelous job of implementing the designer's code.

Anyway, we're arguing semantics. The bottom line is that the tie-breaker system has been broken for several versions, as per post #4 in this thread. We've all read complaints about it over the years. Maybe making some noise will get Markus to focus attention on the problem, whether it's for the current version or the next. He's done a good job in the past couple of years in getting a number of problems ironed out, but having the wrong teams in the post-season is a pretty big flaw/programming gap/whatever to leave in there year after year.

Cryomaniac · 10-08-2013, 08:53 AM

Tiebreakers definitely need some work. I've said before, I'd like them to be customisable.

09-30-2013, 11:53 PM	#1
seven All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Victoria, Canada Posts: 572	Wild card weirdness At the end of a simulation of the 2013 season, two teams were tied for the NL central title, MIL and CIN (85 wins each), and these two teams were also tied for the second NL wild card spot. Two other teams were 1 game behind them in the wild card race at the end of the season (SF and PHI, 84 wins each). According to MLB tiebreaking rules, in this situation there should be a one-game playoff between MIL and CIN, with the winner taking the division title and the loser taking the second NL wild card spot. But instead, after the tiebreaker game (won by MIL), OOTP automatically scheduled a game between SF and PHI. So I ran that game, which SF won, and then SF was automatically scheduled to play CIN. That game was won by SF, and SF is now automatically scheduled to play in the NL wild card game and CIN is out. This does not seem to fit the tiebreaking rules, as PHI and SF ought to have been eliminated no matter the outcome of the CIN-MIL tiebreaker and no matter how the standings changed after that game. Have the MLB tiebreaking rules not been implemented correctly?

10-07-2013, 12:15 AM	#2
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 10,703	Correct. Unfortunately, and to the chagrin of many of us, Markus does not seem to view tie-break methods as a priority. You'd think something as important as who makes the playoffs after a long season would be seen as critical, but I guess because it's fairly rare it's not. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

10-07-2013, 02:43 AM	#7
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 10,703	Which do you prefer? Attached Images __________________ My OOTP Wishlist Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

10-07-2013, 09:30 AM	#12
ajsas01 Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Saline, MI Posts: 441	Casting my vote...this needs fixing! __________________ Go Tigers!

10-08-2013, 08:53 AM	#20
Cryomaniac Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hucknall, Notts, UK Posts: 4,902	Tiebreakers definitely need some work. I've said before, I'd like them to be customisable. __________________

10-07-2013, 06:57 AM	#11
as5680 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Didcot, England Posts: 1,426	This definitely needs fixing - I raised a similar issue a few weeks ago after a bizarre single game play-off was scheduled in my AAA league and I didn't even notice at the time having been focused on the final week of the major league season. In my case, there was a one-game play-off to decide a division but then a team from another division, who had finished one game behind the two teams in that tie, were gifted a play-off for the wild card which they won. Clearly that should not have happened, and the team who lost their division in the first play-off were somewhat cheated out of the wild card. I agree that something like making sure the correct teams make the play-offs is extremely important and 'unusual' tiebreaking situations will always happen from time to time. I can appreciate that it is hard to envisage every possible scenario in advance but there is clearly an issue which occurs when teams which should have been eliminated end up within half a game of a team which has lost a single game play-off.

10-07-2013, 08:53 PM	#17
olivertheorem All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,919	Does it count as a bug if the game is doing what it's supposed to do, given its current programming, even if the results don't jive with real-world tiebreaker rules? I don't think it does. Programming gap/flaw, sure. But not a bug. A bug would be the game not working as designed.