I just took a F2P team from nothing to PeL winners in 8 seasons. Here's my story

[Lemandria]

the chase is more entertaining than reaching the end.

PeL seems to bore the ... sucessful ...teams every bit as much as it bores their cannon fodder.

I can't really imagine a bigger anti-climax.

New guys: don't pass Diamond. It really is a better game than Perfect.

Honestly not sure if there's one damn thing OOTPD can do about that, either.

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Lemandria

PeL seems to bore the ... sucessful ...teams every bit as much as it bores their cannon fodder.

I can't really imagine a bigger anti-climax.

New guys: don't pass Diamond. It really is a better game than Perfect.

Honestly not sure if there's one damn thing OOTPD can do about that, either.

yeah... short of designing the pro/rel pyramid so there is a single "Champions tier" at the top for 30 teams, then 29 leagues below that (so only the 29 champions get promoted up / 29 teams move down from the Champions tier, with the Champ tier winner remaining to defend their title).... and then keep expanding the lower tiers from there accordingly until you get to the iron level...

[skep]

The hobby-shaming in this thread and elsewhere is unfortunate. Whales shouldn't be shamed for spending money instead of time. FTP savants shouldn't be shamed for spending time instead of money. Those sending out unconventional pitching lineups shouldn't be shamed for finding a competitive edge.

As long as you're not breaking the ToS, you shouldn't be shamed for how you choose to play this amazing game. The beautiful thing about competitive gaming and sports is that you can play to win. To each their own, but with respect to all.

[Lemandria]

The wives will take care of the shaming eventually, Skep. But that can be expensive

(Like your vids btw, turn the music down or voice up.)

[OMGPuppies]

Originally Posted by skep

The hobby-shaming in this thread and elsewhere is unfortunate. Whales shouldn't be shamed for spending money instead of time. FTP savants shouldn't be shamed for spending time instead of money. Those sending out unconventional pitching lineups shouldn't be shamed for finding a competitive edge.

As long as you're not breaking the ToS, you shouldn't be shamed for how you choose to play this amazing game. The beautiful thing about competitive gaming and sports is that you can play to win. To each their own, but with respect to all.

I'd be interested in hearing from these naysayers what the "right" way to play is.

[dkgo]

Is there really any shaming going on? Seems like most people are just talking about the current environment and what could be done to make it more fun next year which is the purpose of the forums.

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by dkgo

Is there really any shaming going on? Seems like most people are just talking about the current environment and what could be done to make it more fun next year which is the purpose of the forums.

Know anyone who said this? (Edit for clarity: From the tournaments thread):

Originally Posted by dkgo

man that is someone with a pathetic life to cheese a video game with nothing on the line

Or maybe pertinent to this thread:

Originally Posted by dkgo

It's easy to do, you just have to spend half your waking hours on the auction house. PT is worse than your generic mobile game in terms of forced addiction to progress

Originally Posted by Orcin

Agreed. If you have no other life, you can be elite in a game.

[dkgo]

I mean, I was saying that I've done a similar thing on the auction house before so I know what it takes.

Orcin is right too. It forces an unhealthy gameplay pattern which is worth discussing ways to improve.

All of this seems pretty tame for the internet tbh

[emilempenza]

Originally Posted by Lemandria

PeL seems to bore the ... sucessful ...teams every bit as much as it bores their cannon fodder.

I can't really imagine a bigger anti-climax.

New guys: don't pass Diamond. It really is a better game than Perfect.

Honestly not sure if there's one damn thing OOTPD can do about that, either.

Some lad in my league seems to agree with your sentiment. He has won the diamond league 3 times in the past 6 seasons, which is … impressive?

[traveller79]

Staying liquid seems to be the key to generating a consistent stream of revenue via flipping. As an experiment, I took a hands-off second-tier FTP team and focused on flipping as a means of generating PP. Within about two weeks I'd completed the Braves and ChiSox missions and then finished up the Padres shortly thereafter, partly by flipping and partly by buying up pieces and then immediately putting them up again at a massive % increase; you can always buy more components, and the more liquid you are, the greater your options. Completing missions efficiently demands the patience and discipline of a sniper.

And by then I was burned out on refreshing the auction house every half hour during the workday. Takes a special kind of patience to work the AH consistently, as you get nothing for hours or days at a time and then land a 30k+ score that makes your week.

Don't know that flipping will be as lucrative in next year's edition with corrected L7 and the huge influx of cards and deflationary effect that tournaments have provided, but QC's results and those of the top OL teams indicate how powerful it was for this year's iteration.

Originally Posted by QuantaCondor

But the time consumption thing is a lot more easily managed when you're looking for several collections at once. I had a boatload of PP on hand for any given moment, and I was usually tracking at least 6 or more collections at a time. I found that the limiting factor when you really are going hardcore into collections is not the rate at which you find cards, but actually the rate at which people buy the SE cards you're selling. Doesn't matter how much you know the economy if you don't have any PP to use.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Lemandria

Quant, I'm sorry if I annoyed your fanbois.

Ok, I'll bite.

You got me. I'm annoyed. Right off the bat, from your first comment, "Mom more hot pockets" was a really ******* thing to say. We all know the implication as it relates to gamers. We're all huge OOTP nerds here, aren't we?? Like, that's the point of this forum? So why are we ridiculing each other for...being nerds?? It makes no sense, just comes off as petty and small.

The point "time is like money" is a valid one. But it could have been made (more effectively) without personal attacks.

Furthermore. Becoming a "fanboi" of someone who beat you at something you thought you were good at, is not easy. Not at all actually. I am a competitive person. I thought I was good at this game, possibly one of the best. Since QuC (and others) left me in the dust weeks ago, my ego has really struggled at times. So please understand, my respect for QuC comes not from some sense of blind loyalty as the word "fanboi" implies. It comes begrudgingly, only after being beaten fair & square.

I suspect simply reading this thread has put some of you in the exact same situation I was in a few weeks ago. Forced to reconcile your ego because you're coming to terms with a simple, but hard-to-swallow fact: "Maybe I'm not the best."

When faced with such a situation, there are two options to choose from:
1) Reconcile your ego to the truth
2) Pretend the truth doesn't exist, preserve the ego

By writing off QuC as "just spends a lot of time in the AH" you're downplaying his skill. The next logical step is "well obviously if I spent THAT much time in the AH, I would be that good too". But that's a lie. You wouldn't. Before you know it, you've gone down the dark pathway #2 without even realizing it. You've maintained your sense of superiority in the face of evidence to the contrary. That's what narcissists do. Healthy, functioning adults (I know, gaming forum, a lot to ask) should have no problem choosing option #1.

So yeah. You got me, I'm annoyed. Petty, narcissistic behavior annoys me. Be better.

[Mizzery]

Originally Posted by Lemandria

PeL seems to bore the ... sucessful ...teams every bit as much as it bores their cannon fodder.

I can't really imagine a bigger anti-climax.

New guys: don't pass Diamond. It really is a better game than Perfect.

Honestly not sure if there's one damn thing OOTPD can do about that, either.

I had not thought about it in those terms, but once I read the post it resonated immediately. As someone with three FTP teams that bounce between upper echelon Diamond and lower tier Perfect with an occasional wild card appearance, the seasons I spend in Diamond are much more fun than those I spend in Perfect.

I always play to win, and try to field the most competitive lineups I can at all levels. Not sure what it says about me or the game, but I find myself actively disappointed when my team misses the playoffs in Perfect and I do NOT get relegated.

There are occasional posts about the desire for a reset button to restart the game. I suspect that many of us would use it frequently it as the strategic but short chase from Iron to Diamond is far more engaging than the dozens of seasons in trying to incrementally move up in Perfect.

[Dogberry99]

This, the topic of this thread, is an impressive achievement. It is one that shows the heights that can be reached through smart strategies, hard work and effort, and dedication and time. The fact that most players cannot and/or will never be able to combine these factors into their own success should not diminish at all what the OP was able to accomplish. We should celebrate their achievement for what it is, nothing more and nothing less, and by any metric, it is an impressive achievement.


However, I categorically disagree with the mindset advocated in this and other threads that achievement points are completely insufficient for being competitive. While it is absolutely a limiting factor, it is entirely possible to slowly build a team that is capable of accruing a significant amount of achievements and points, even at the Perfect level.

The trap most teams fall into is incrementalism. Very few players are willing and able to save points for the improvements that will truly make a difference. There are far too many expensive cards that look great for various reasons that do not perform at the highest levels of the game. This trap is a pit that is far more difficult to climb out of without the greater point liquidity that comes from flipping strategies (via either the market, collections, or a combination thereof) or point purchases. The challenge is to eliminate these mistakes and minimize the points required to paper over them.

Basically, my argument is that everyone is currently hyper focused on wealth accumulation, and that while this is incredibly important, there are also paths to success that are built around the efficient point usage and the maximization of a lower-yet-still-sufficient achievement-based income.


"Large Market" teams will always win their fair share. Not everyone in this game is able or willing to generate point revenue like the Yankees. However, I believe that there are still paths to be the Oakland A's in this game. Points and total wealth are not the final arbiters of competitiveness.

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

This, the topic of this thread, is an impressive achievement. It is one that shows the heights that can be reached through smart strategies, hard work and effort, and dedication and time. The fact that most players cannot and/or will never be able to combine these factors into their own success should not diminish at all what the OP was able to accomplish. We should celebrate their achievement for what it is, nothing more and nothing less, and by any metric, it is an impressive achievement.


However, I categorically disagree with the mindset advocated in this and other threads that achievement points are completely insufficient for being competitive. While it is absolutely a limiting factor, it is entirely possible to slowly build a team that is capable of accruing a significant amount of achievements and points, even at the Perfect level.

The trap most teams fall into is incrementalism. Very few players are willing and able to save points for the improvements that will truly make a difference. There are far too many expensive cards that look great for various reasons that do not perform at the highest levels of the game. This trap is a pit that is far more difficult to climb out of without the greater point liquidity that comes from flipping strategies (via either the market, collections, or a combination thereof) or point purchases. The challenge is to eliminate these mistakes and minimize the points required to paper over them.

Basically, my argument is that everyone is currently hyper focused on wealth accumulation, and that while this is incredibly important, there are also paths to success that are built around the efficient point usage and the maximization of a lower-yet-still-sufficient achievement-based income.


"Large Market" teams will always win their fair share. Not everyone in this game is able or willing to generate point revenue like the Yankees. However, I believe that there are still paths to be the Oakland A's in this game. Points and total wealth are not the final arbiters of competitiveness.

Really the key statement is that you have to think about what your endgame is. And an endgame card for you might not be an endgame card for someone else, depending on your goals. For example, if your goal was to make it to Perfect as quick as possible, that team and that journey will look different from one where the goal is to try to make the Perfect playoffs as often as possible, which will look different from that of a team that's trying to win PL WS titles as much as possible. I'd argue that only that last team concept, where you're trying to regularly compete with true whales, is one where you need some independent sense of PP generation; the others you can probably get by with just using the accumulated PP to make a good baseline team and then just buy a decent piece every few weeks are so. Your floor will always be lower than someone who has a good PP generation strategy, but the ceiling is potentially the same.

For example, last week I was in a division with a team that won a PL title on a 83-79 season. That other BFF team that tracked up to Perfect with me made the playoffs on a 83-81 season and will probably improve from there, and they haven't done much in the way of collections aside from SE Brecheen. I think a team that's existed from launch probably has a bunch of PP, and can make a playoff-competitive team in Perfect without much trouble (assuming PP isn't being wasted on packs). It's not easy but certainly possible to beat a lot of the field on just analytics and good player choices. You're just always susceptible to that player who either has good analytics AND more PP, or to that player who has a boatload more PP that you can't overwhelm.

[QuantaCondor]

As an update, the Gophers won a second PL title in as many seasons in Perfect. The opponent (who went 114 wins compared to 116 by the Gophers, good for 2nd and 1st in wins and RDiff each in the league respectively) actually was the same one as in last week's WS by total coincidence; not on a friends list or anything, they just happened to be in the same league and opposite conference once again. So that makes 2 PL titles in 9 seasons. I fully look forward to getting dominated by one or more whales next week, but it's been a crazy run.