DH or no DH?

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by RchW

The objection here is that some people try to elevate double switches into some sort of stratospheric mental accomplishment just so they can look down their nose at someone they disagree with regarding the DH.

It's pretty sad if that's what you got from my post... LOL

[Padreman]

Like old Yeller this thread needs to be taken out back and taken out of its misery

[StLee]

I grew up watching National League baseball, so, in my universes on OOTP, I tend to favor the no DH rule.

However, when I play MLB The Show, I like the arcade feel of playing with a DH. Usually I go with the Red Sox (love Fenway Park) and find a heavy hitting pull rightie to be my DH.

[rjl518]

i cant stand the DH...

hey pitcher!...yeah...you...in the dugout...go grab yourself a stick and step up to the plate you lazy bum and take hacks like everyone else does!!!

[CobaltJays]

I used to be anti-DH, but I've become very pro-DH over the last several years. It's been a reluctant conversion.

In OOTP, my fictional league uses the DH exclusively, with 7-man bullpens and 26-man active rosters. I like the fact that the DH gives me some additional flexibility when constructing my starting lineup. I don't have to be as concerned about having multiple players at one position, so there are more players that I can potentially acquire when I'm looking to upgrade my lineup. Finding short-term injury replacements is also easier.

I've often put "Wrecked" players in the DH spot to reduce the chance of injury, even if they were decent defensive players. Some of my players wouldn't have had such great careers without the DH.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Dead wrong. Have you coached in both a DH and a non DH-league? I have (non-professionally) and what you posted was nonsense. DH is pure autopilot.

Frankly, dude, that says more about you than it does about the rule. Earl Weaver spent his whole career in the AL, and was one of the most aggressive coaches ever in terms of actively using his bench players.



This is the Bill James quote I referenced earlier, plus another, plus two guys who obviously don't know much about managing saying the same thing.

Originally Posted by Bill James

The D.H. rule, far from draining strategy out of the game simply removes from the game the most trite, predictable, nonstrategic part of it.

Strategy exists only in making choices, only in the face of options. The National League game confronts the NL manager with frequent no-option situations, situations in which he must bunt or he must pinch hit.

The American League game allows a true option, and thus true strategy. That is clearly reflected in the fact that the American League has clear groups of big-inning teams and one-run teams, while the National League does not.

Originally Posted by Bill James

I'm not an advocate of the Designated Hitter Rule; I'm only an advocate of seeing the truth and telling the truth. What the truth comes down to here is a question of in what does strategy reside? Does strategy exist in the act of bunting? If so the Designated Hitter Rule has reduced strategy. But if strategy exists in the decision about when a bunt should be used, then the DH rule has increased the differences of opinion which exist about that question, and thus increased strategy...[the research shows] that there is more of a difference of opinion, not less, in the American League."

Originally Posted by Jim Leyland

I think managing in the American League is much more difficult for that very reason (having the designated hitter). In the National League, my situation is dictated for me. If I'm behind in the game, I've got to pinch hit. I've got to take my pitcher out. In the American League, you have to zero in. You have to know exactly when to take them out of there. In the National League, that's done for you.

Originally Posted by Mike Sciosca

The one thing at first I was very, very anti designated hitter, you know, coming from the National League. The one thing I found after working with it for three years is not only the offense opens up on another bat, but the little ball opens up. That's really almost contradictory to a designated hitter philosophy, where you think you have a big bat in the line-up. We can do more things in the American League, particularly as you approach the bottom third or bottom half of your order than you can in the National League because of the pitcher's spot. It creates more little ball in the American League than maybe might be on the surface and I think our club has, you know, been an indication of that.

[TomVeal]

Like most theological arguments, this one will never end. I would like to add one observation: The discussion here has focused almost entirely on whether DH or no-DH offers more tactical options to the manager, but the American League didn't adopt the rule in order to improve or thwart strategizing, and, in any case, baseball isn't chess. We don't follow it for the sake of seeing brilliant managerial maneuvering.

The argument is ultimately about how much specialization the game should encourage. Hardly anybody favors going the way of football, basketball and ice hockey (effectively unlimited substitution and maximum specialization), but we've moved beyond cricket (no substitutions except for injuries and only limited bowler specialization). I tend toward the non-specialist side of the spectrum myself. It wouldn't bother me if the starting lineup had to play the entire game and no one could pitch more than three innings. But it's a matter of taste, and I know that I'm in as small a minority as lovers of lutefisk.

[The Wolf]

Well, judging by the poll results, the DH loses big-time around here.

[swoboda]

The biggest difference for me is this, close game middle innings, do you pull your starter for a pinch hitter or leave him in the game? With a DH you never ever face that decision.

[sprague]

I play with no DH for an important reason based on how OOTP generates results.

Since it generates totals based on a league total setup, adding the DH takes a lot of hits and home runs that if pitchers have to hit for half the game does not happen. I tend to find that if I have a DH a league leader might be .311 average and 38 HR, while with no DH the same leaders will be .320 and 44 HR.
Same is true for pitchers, they will have better year numbers with no DH

So my choice is based solely on OOTP as an engine itself, less on what I like or don't like as a baseball fan.

[rpriske]

Originally Posted by Westheim

So your players set their own lineup? Why don't just hit "sim season"?

Yeah because THAT is what I said.

Give me a break.

Minimizing manager interference is not eliminating managing. Don't be dishonest.


All the examples you used in your post either apply just as much to DH leagues (when to rest players? Uh, what does that have to do with the DH?) or actually make the game worse.

I can't understand why any fan would ever sit there thinking "man, I can't wait until they take the better players out of the game so I can see that worse-hitting, worse-fielding back-up in the game. That will be so sweet."

And anything than encourages bunting is a bad thing. Bunting is (almost always) bad baseball.


And I manage a non-DH league. It is easier.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by sprague

I play with no DH for an important reason based on how OOTP generates results.

Since it generates totals based on a league total setup, adding the DH takes a lot of hits and home runs that if pitchers have to hit for half the game does not happen. I tend to find that if I have a DH a league leader might be .311 average and 38 HR, while with no DH the same leaders will be .320 and 44 HR.
Same is true for pitchers, they will have better year numbers with no DH

So my choice is based solely on OOTP as an engine itself, less on what I like or don't like as a baseball fan.

This makes no sense to me. I play a MLB setup with DH in the AL and not in the NL. The difference in offensive stats and pitchers ERA etc between both leagues matches real life and so do the league totals for MLB. This has been consistent for decades in game. I'd have to see some more compelling analysis than the league leader in any statistical category. See below for the difference between AL and NL with DH in the AL.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Well, judging by the poll results, the DH loses big-time around here.

You said earlier in this very thread:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Facts aren't subject to polls.

And now that experts have been found to effectively counter your "authority", you rely on the very poll results you slagged!

Outstanding!

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by swoboda

The biggest difference for me is this, close game middle innings, do you pull your starter for a pinch hitter or leave him in the game? With a DH you never ever face that decision.

Well sure you do.

In a close game in the middle innings I'm always watching my pitcher and being prepared to pull him if I have to.

Nothing to do with DH, it's about managing your pitching staff.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Well sure you do.

In a close game in the middle innings I'm always watching my pitcher and being prepared to pull him if I have to.

Nothing to do with DH, it's about managing your pitching staff.

The DH league manager has to worry about his pitcher half the game, when he is actually pitching. The "classic" league manager will have to worry all game long, because the pitcher's spot will come up to bat at some point.

How much does he have left? Is it worth it, potentially not scoring this inning, but having him go deeper into the game?

The DH league manager can sit down in the half-innings his team is batting. "Go up there, kids, and do that swing thing. I'll be over there with a hot dog."

[rpriske]

Originally Posted by Westheim

The DH league manager can sit down in the half-innings his team is batting. "Go up there, kids, and do that swing thing. I'll be over there with a hot dog."

Nonsense.

[rpriske]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

And now that experts have been found to effectively counter your "authority", you rely on the very poll results you slagged!

Outstanding!

Besides, the poll is very close. You need to add the second and third totals together to get the people who like the DH.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by RchW

This makes no sense to me. I play a MLB setup with DH in the AL and not in the NL. The difference in offensive stats and pitchers ERA etc between both leagues matches real life and so do the league totals for MLB. This has been consistent for decades in game. I'd have to see some more compelling analysis than the league leader in any statistical category. See below for the difference between AL and NL with DH in the AL.

I think he's claiming that individual numbers will be higher in leagues without a DH, due to OOTP's use of league totals. So in leagues without a DH, stats are spread over 8 batters per team instead of 9. League totals would still remain close to real life, but individual performances will be better as stats are being divided up by less players. Not sure if that's how it works though.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

You said earlier in this very thread:



And now that experts have been found to effectively counter your "authority", you rely on the very poll results you slagged!

Outstanding!

Outstanding lies on your part, as usual. No one has countered anything. DH management remains sitting on the bench, watching to see when your pitcher loses his effectiveness so you can warm somebody up. Yawn. Westheim has it correct in his posts, as usual. You have it wrong in yours, as usual.

Nor did I write that I was "relying" on the poll. I said that "Well, judging by the poll results, the DH loses big-time around here." And it does, you can see that. Those are poll results, a separate thing, and the DH does lose in them big time around here. You were the one wanting to let the people decide. Well, they did. In the opinion poll, your side lost.

It doesn't matter what anyone posts here, I know that DH managment is autopilot mode. Been there, done that, won the championship.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Besides, the poll is very close. You need to add the second and third totals together to get the people who like the DH.

No, Rusty, option 2 is for both. You have to compare the "No DH" choice (option 1) vs. the "DH" choice, (option 3). The results are 2 to 1 against the DH.