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Old 11-04-2013, 03:59 AM   #41
MrMuse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Plus the game is guaranteed to work with your system.
Hell no. That's almost funny.

Any attempt to get a refund or credit from Steam will (after a wait of several days for a support response only to be given a forum link) find you directed to contact the publishers and, if this fails to produce any result, to read the Steam user agreement where the 'small print' tells you that credits or refunds can only be made in cases of pre-purchase before the game is actually released or if your account shows that you have not used the game at all (even this proviso is marked as "discretionary" and since your use of the game starts the moment you try to install it) - this means if you can't get it to work you are **** out of luck.

Since you are making a contract of purchase with Steam/Valve, and not the original supplier, the Steam user agreement directly contravenes most countries' consumer laws as you have no right to an equitable remedy. However, since the internet and digital space does not exist in any singular country no national law can be brought to apply. In effect, the second you click "I agree" (or check the box on your final details) before you make a purchase on Steam you have no rights whatsoever over the money you have just clicked away.

Despite this, cases where you fail to get a game to work are comparatively rare and the benefits arguably outweigh the drawbacks. In all likelihood, for that one game in 100 that you failed to run you will have saved a fortune in the crazy 10-90% sales with -75% being fairly common. I guess it just depends on whether or not you are prepared to overlook that the way they are doing business is unethical.

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-04-2013 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:25 AM   #42
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Picked up FM2014 and I'm enjoying that and now all I need is OOTP14 and I'd never want to leave the house...except to replenish the beer cooler.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:53 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMuse View Post
Hell no. That's almost funny.

Any attempt to get a refund or credit from Steam will (after a wait of several days for a support response only to be given a forum link) find you directed to contact the publishers and, if this fails to produce any result, to read the Steam user agreement where the 'small print' tells you that credits or refunds can only be made in cases of pre-purchase before the game is actually released or if your account shows that you have not used the game at all (even this proviso is marked as "discretionary" and since your use of the game starts the moment you try to install it) - this means if you can't get it to work you are **** out of luck.

Since you are making a contract of purchase with Steam/Valve, and not the original supplier, the Steam user agreement directly contravenes most countries' consumer laws as you have no right to an equitable remedy. However, since the internet and digital space does not exist in any singular country no national law can be brought to apply. In effect, the second you click "I agree" (or check the box on your final details) before you make a purchase on Steam you have no rights whatsoever over the money you have just clicked away.

Despite this, cases where you fail to get a game to work are comparatively rare and the benefits arguably outweigh the drawbacks. In all likelihood, for that one game in 100 that you failed to run you will have saved a fortune in the crazy 10-90% sales with -75% being fairly common. I guess it just depends on whether or not you are prepared to overlook that the way they are doing business is unethical.
My brother got a full refund fairly promptly when a game didn't work on his laptop. Steam does give refunds. You just have to make your case.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 11-04-2013, 10:54 AM   #44
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Picked up FM2014 and I'm enjoying that and now all I need is OOTP14 and I'd never want to leave the house...except to replenish the beer cooler.
Don't forget food.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 11-04-2013, 03:29 PM   #45
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My brother got a full refund fairly promptly when a game didn't work on his laptop. Steam does give refunds. You just have to make your case.
Guess he was the one that got through to Gabe. I can assure you that this is not the usual m.o.

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-04-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:12 PM   #46
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Guess he was the one that got through to Gabe. I can assure you that this is not the usual m.o.
My understanding is that if you have a solid case you get a refund. But you have to have a solid case.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 11-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #47
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About 4 times in my 7 years on Steam (and well over 400 purchases) I have requested refunds for products that refused to work. After being pushed around between Steam support and the producers of each product, one blaming the other each time, after producing system specs, diagnostics reports, and pretty much anything else they ever requested, I never once received a refund. Please don't make me link any of the hundreds of Steam threads, or thousands of complaints on this subject, or the whole of the Steam user agreement which says exactly what I posted it says. Your brother got lucky. This is not usual. Most people who have been on Steam for a long time no longer even bother to try to get refunds but (as do I) just cut their losses and move on.

Why do I still use Steam? Because there is nowhere else where you can pick up good outdated games for pennies, fairly new games at substantial discount, be confident that they are as up-to-date as they can be, all with just a few clicks. There are services where you can do some of these things but there is none with the size and scope of Steam that does them all.

And none of this has any bearing on whether or not being on Steam would be of great benefit to OOTPD or the OOTP community as a whole. This isn't even worth debating because it is just a fact that it would. But I'm not comfortable with people portraying Steam as all hearts and roses when it is not.

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-04-2013 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:39 PM   #48
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I'm you MrMuse.. took me countless messages to Steam support and finding someone who had a perfectly worded message that I copied and pasted to finally get credit for a game that went belly up and the developer stopped supporting.

Truly the worst time I've ever had in getting a legitimate refund.

But.. I'm also with you.. I use Steam regularly just because it's a fast and easy method to get good, cheap games.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:45 PM   #49
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The advantage of online stuff is that it's cheaper. The disadvantage is trying to return it if it doesn't work or is the wrong size.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:28 PM   #50
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New User: So this is just broken? Why would they put a game on sale that doesn't work?
Experienced User: They sale tag games that aren't selling well for obvious reason all the time

[elsewhere]
Dev: Why is no one buying our £15 game?
Valve: People are saying in forums that it doesn't work for everyone
Dev: Oh, that sucks...seems okay to us
Valve: Don't worry...we will put it in a sale for a ridiculous ammount...let's say 75% off...our idiot customers will buy anything as long as it looks cheap. You'll make a FORTUNE without having to lift a finger to fix it.
Dev: COOL!
Valve: Isn't Steam beautiful

New User: I guess I'll have to go bug Steam for a refund
[Theme from Impossible Mission plays as he walks off]

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-08-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:00 PM   #51
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Geez, I just don't get the hate for Steam. I mean, I've never had to ask for a refund myself, and I can believe their customer service isn't the greatest. But even still, the idea that it's a giant conspiracy to screw people out of their money by putting un-finished games on sale? Where does that even come from?

Sure, some poorly-made games go on sale. Freaking everything goes on sale at least once a year. It's not Steam's fault if the developers suck enough to put an unfinished product out. It's admittedly easier to do that with a digital copy, but you know what I do before I buy anything on Steam? I read a freaking review of the game so I know what I'm buying.

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Old 11-08-2013, 11:34 PM   #52
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Geez, I just don't get the hate for Steam. I mean, I've never had to ask for a refund myself, and I can believe their customer service isn't the greatest. But even still, the idea that it's a giant conspiracy to screw people out of their money by putting un-finished games on sale? Where does that even come from?

Sure, some poorly-made games go on sale. Freaking everything goes on sale at least once a year. It's not Steam's fault if the developers suck enough to put an unfinished product out. It's admittedly easier to do that with a digital copy, but you know what I do before I buy anything on Steam? I read a freaking review of the game so I know what I'm buying.
Steam is great. Some people would hate on anything.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:09 AM   #53
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Geez, I just don't get the hate for Steam....

Sure, some poorly-made games go on sale. Freaking everything goes on sale at least once a year. It's not Steam's fault if the developers suck enough to put an unfinished product out.
Hate it? I use it EVERY day of my life. It would be hypocritical to hate it. It IS their fault - as I said earlier in this thread...your contract of purchace..i.e. the people you pay your money to (and should therefore be responsible) are Steam/Valve. Also, they choose who they will and will not allow to put their stuff on there and also what they allow - just ask OOTPD about that. Even highly voted Greenlight games can be randomly vetoed if Valve decide to do so.

I think Steam itself is an AMAZING thing...for a gamer it is arguably the best use of the internet ever. I just don't like their subjective lack of standards (by letting crap in) one minute, their crushing veto power (by refusing a game like this) another minute...or their completely unethical user agreement and refund policy.

The previous post was meant to be cynically amusing -something you clearly missed.

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-09-2013 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
Geez, I just don't get the hate for Steam. I mean, I've never had to ask for a refund myself, and I can believe their customer service isn't the greatest. But even still, the idea that it's a giant conspiracy to screw people out of their money by putting un-finished games on sale? Where does that even come from?

Sure, some poorly-made games go on sale. Freaking everything goes on sale at least once a year. It's not Steam's fault if the developers suck enough to put an unfinished product out. It's admittedly easier to do that with a digital copy, but you know what I do before I buy anything on Steam? I read a freaking review of the game so I know what I'm buying.
Indeed. I've brought exactly one game that didn't work (most likely due to a graphics card incompatibility, so I could probably get it to work if I could afford a new graphics card) and that only cost £2.50, so I can't be bothered to try and get a refund.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:34 PM   #55
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So you guys both love it and badmouth it in public?

Is there an emoticon for "confused"? Ah:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 11-09-2013, 02:22 PM   #56
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The previous post was meant to be cynically amusing -something you clearly missed.
Cynically amusing by insinuating that Valve knowingly puts unfinished games on sale just to boost revenue?

Count me with Wolf here:
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:31 PM   #57
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Yes. I can say that Babe Ruth once **** his pants on the field because he swung so hard. That doesn't mean I actually think it happened. Steam sales are always based on current sale figures and drops in the market...ANY game showing a prolonged drop in sales is up for a sale boost. It just so happens that games that have issues are very likely to be in that category. Do I really believe Valve abuse this deliberately? No. Do I think it happens anyway? Yes. It is just marketing and just based on numbers but the results can be as I said. Come talk to me when your two braincells have stopped attacking one another Fyre. Think of that post you complain about as a cartoon. I'm sure you watch many.

*edit* sorry if this seems harsh but I'm losing patience with people who just can't wait to jump on what other people have to say like a dog on a bone and, in the same, way refuse to let go after being given an explanation . It really isn't my problem if you cant differentiate between a factual statement and a sarcastic one.

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-09-2013 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #58
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Number of Steam exclusive games I came upon the last few weeks that I would have loved to have: 2
Number of times this encouraged me to swallow the cancer pill that is Steam: 0

I hate it, I despise it, I will embitteredly, stubbornly, absolutely refuse to ever, ever use it (or any other redundant third party service for that matter). With the way things are going this will have me run out of new games by about 2015.

Worst case scenario: I will play OOTP 12 till the day I die.

Could be a lot worse.
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Westheim View Post
Number of Steam exclusive games I came upon the last few weeks that I would have loved to have: 2
Number of times this encouraged me to swallow the cancer pill that is Steam: 0

I hate it, I despise it, I will embitteredly, stubbornly, absolutely refuse to ever, ever use it (or any other redundant third party service for that matter). With the way things are going this will have me run out of new games by about 2015.

Worst case scenario: I will play OOTP 12 till the day I die.

Could be a lot worse.
Hehe. Now you can see the difference between MY post and a "Hater". I have around 250 games in my Steam library. Only about 5 refuse to work. This doesn't alter the fact that I've never been able to secure a refund.

Last edited by MrMuse; 11-09-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:18 PM   #60
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Yes. I can say that Babe Ruth once **** his pants on the field because he swung so hard. That doesn't mean I actually think it happened. Steam sales are always based on current sale figures and drops in the market...ANY game showing a prolonged drop in sales is up for a sale boost. It just so happens that games that have issues are very likely to be in that category. Do I really believe Valve abuse this deliberately? No. Do I think it happens anyway? Yes. It is just marketing and just based on numbers but the results can be as I said. Come talk to me when your two braincells have stopped attacking one another Fyre. Think of that post you complain about as a cartoon. I'm sure you watch many.

*edit* sorry if this seems harsh but I'm losing patience with people who just can't wait to jump on what other people have to say like a dog on a bone and, in the same, way refuse to let go after being given an explanation . It really isn't my problem if you cant differentiate between a factual statement and a sarcastic one.
For Christ's sake, in what way did I personally attack you? I defended Steam in what I think was a fairly calm, rational state of mind. In my personal experience, people resort to insults when they can't otherwise articulate their point of view. You're a strange exception; you explain yourself perfectly well, and then turn around and insult me for not catching your sarcasm. Sarcasm which, I should point out, came just a few days after you bashed Steam for having poor customer service.

Pro tip: Sarcasm doesn't come across via text unless you use an emoticon. And it especially doesn't come across when it's not contrary to the point you were previously making.


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Originally Posted by MrMuse View Post
Hehe. Now you can see the difference between MY post and a "Hater". I have around 250 games in my Steam library. Only about 5 refuse to work. This doesn't alter the fact that I've never been able to secure a refund.
I don't have a problem with your comments. I never did. I chimed in to defend Steam from what I thought was a baseless claim. That's all. I even acknowledged that they probably have poor customer service. I never personally insulted you or called you a hater. Please stop doing the same to me.

Last edited by Fyrestorm3; 11-09-2013 at 08:20 PM.
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