Competitive balance discussion

[STLRS95]

Originally Posted by matingly23

No, and you're just a broken record at this point.

All I ask for is a fair chance. I lost in Bronze happily. I lost in Silver unfairly.

You did not lose unfairly. You have every chance to build a team like the so-called whales do. You choose not to. That is not unfair, that is your choice.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by STLRS95

You did not lose unfairly. You have every chance to build a team like the so-called whales do. You choose not to. That is not unfair, that is your choice.

It is not a choice for everybody. Some of us don't have a whole lot of extra income, something that a lot of you seem to ignore on purpose.


Unless of course you truly consider eating vs buying a few digital cards that will be completely useless in 2 months a choice.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by eldur00

It is not a choice for everybody. Some of us don't have a whole lot of extra income, something that a lot of you seem to ignore on purpose.


Unless of course you truly consider eating vs buying a few digital cards that will be completely useless in 2 months a choice.

The game is not going to end in 2 months. I expect 19 to last 2 years at least, so how are these digital cards going to be useless in 2 months?

If money is tight, are you planning to buy 20 when it comes out ($40) or are you going to wait until October ($10)? .

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by matingly23

No, I really won't, I expect those teams to have a lot of 100 cards and to have to bounce back and forth between Diamond and Perfect for a while to belong there. Perfect = 100.

Silver = 70-80. Not 15 100 cards and 10 90-100 cards.

The Whale I was against had 60+ cards on the reserve roster and the lowest rating there was 80.

There are plenty of teams in Perfect League with few Perfect Cards. Their managers all have a plan that they are loyal to and stick with from season to season through ups and downs. They do not waste time coveting the other teams rosters but instead try to find ways within their means to counter them.

It is just a game. Find your niche and have fun!

[Thundercrack]

Originally Posted by bailey

The game is not going to end in 2 months. I expect 19 to last 2 years at least, so how are these digital cards going to be useless in 2 months? .

All of the money will move to 20 the day it’s released and 19 will die a quick death. Better to think of 19 as an extended beta.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

There are plenty of teams in Perfect League with few Perfect Cards. Their managers all have a plan that they are loyal to and stick with from season to season through ups and downs. They do not waste time coveting the other teams rosters but instead try to find ways within their means to counter them.

It is just a game. Find your niche and have fun!

You are correct (As usual) my friend. 👍😁

[STLRS95]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack

All of the money will move to 20 the day it’s released and 19 will die a quick death. Better to think of 19 as an extended beta.

If all of the money moves to 20 then so will the "Whales." Problem solved for all the whiners on here about "Whales."

I doubt they just move on though. Will probably have "whales" in both versions.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by matingly23

No, and you're just a broken record at this point.

All I ask for is a fair chance. I lost in Bronze happily. I lost in Silver unfairly.

You're just a broken record at this point.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by STLRS95

If all of the money moves to 20 then so will the "Whales." Problem solved for all the whiners on here about "Whales."

I doubt they just move on though. Will probably have "whales" in both versions.

Even if they move to 20 and become whales in that version then their Whale teams will still exist in 19.


What will end though is you probably won't see many, if any, new whale teams created in 19 after 20 is released.

[Weaseltail]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

You're just a broken record at this point.

At this point, everything in this thread is a broken record.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

At this point, everything in this thread is a broken record.

No disagreement there, just found it funny to see the whole pot/kettle thing playing out so blatantly.

[traylor45]

Originally Posted by eldur00

It is not a choice for everybody. Some of us don't have a whole lot of extra income, something that a lot of you seem to ignore on purpose.


Unless of course you truly consider eating vs buying a few digital cards that will be completely useless in 2 months a choice.

It's 100% your choice to play a game that costs real $$$'s to win. You could go play any other number of games if you feel like that isn't fair, or you don't have the necessary discretionary income to make this fun.

I lucked out and hit a "whale" card my first week, or else I would probably be much less invested in this game. I don't see the fun in having a crappy team that can only get slightly better from the few PP earned each week. I also don't see much long-term fun being in Perfect leagues where there are 2-3 teams that have 10+ Perfects on their reserve roster and a team that is 100% Diamond or better. Even my 400k windfall that first week isn't enough to compete with that.

[uschi_baerchen]

I thought so, that this was a tiny whale since he dropped out of Perfect to Diamond

[uschi_baerchen]

Holy cow, but thanks for the Picture (+ I thought deGroom would be Ace, here he is borderline)

[uschi_baerchen]

To be a bit more specific:

1. I do not agree with you, that you (and me) are squeezed out of competition with unfair methods if the "whales" are using Money to squeeze us, since - having seen your Picture - I assume PerfectLeague is simply on Bridge too far.

2. What concerns me more and what should also concern OOTP-Company is that this type of Teams cost more than (conservatively estimated) 1000 Dollars (for 1000 Dollars you get 1.000.000 of perfect Points and I have read, that there are some Bonds/Cobbs/Ruths already bartered for 250.000 PP).

Now, I assume, that there might be a few People willing to shell out so much money for some digital figures on a foreign Server, but I wonder, if there will be so many as seems to be the case considering the number of "wahles" in PerfectLeagues.

It comes to this: I wonder, if the Money is really spent or if someone has found a way to crack into the AH and sells PP fraudulently on a margin. In this case you really have the equivalent of Doping: the honest People are squeezed out of honest competition and the competition is rendered meaningless thsi way. Also OOTP is deprived of the well earned income.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by uschi_baerchen

To be a bit more specific:

1. I do not agree with you, that you (and me) are squeezed out of competition with unfair methods if the "whales" are using Money to squeeze us, since - having seen your Picture - I assume PerfectLeague is simply on Bridge too far.

2. What concerns me more and what should also concern OOTP-Company is that this type of Teams cost more than (conservatively estimated) 1000 Dollars (for 1000 Dollars you get 1.000.000 of perfect Points and I have read, that there are some Bonds/Cobbs/Ruths already bartered for 250.000 PP).

Now, I assume, that there might be a few People willing to shell out so much money for some digital figures on a foreign Server, but I wonder, if there will be so many as seems to be the case considering the number of "wahles" in PerfectLeagues.

It comes to this: I wonder, if the Money is really spent or if someone has found a way to crack into the AH and sells PP fraudulently on a margin. In this case you really have the equivalent of Doping: the honest People are squeezed out of honest competition and the competition is rendered meaningless thsi way. Also OOTP is deprived of the well earned income.

I would hope they can audit all transactions, in effect, go back and see exactly how a team was constructed....when PP's were paid for, what cards were bought for what price, etc etc....and I would hope would do so for the extreme top teams. If I were very wealthy a thousand bucks for a game wouldn't be extreme.Unfortunately for me, I'm not!

[OzzyOz23]

This is going to be a long post, and please forgive me if I repeat anything that was written previously by others. I just feel the need to contribute to this discussion.

Even though I haven't posted on these forums over the years, I am a long time lurker & have considered myself a silent member of the OOTP community since at least version 6.5, which is when I converted over from Baseball Mogul. Mostly I came by for mods and ideas, occasionally reading up on stats-only debates & other hot button topics. PT has inspired me to become a more vocal member, as I have had a blast talking ball on Discord, and figure for all this community here on the boards has given me, I should give back a little too.

I have been on both sides of this....in previous baseball card games I was strictly F2P all the way thru. And not a fan of whales, to say the least. However, I have gone full NWO, errr...whale on this game for a number of reasons I won't bore you with. I will say, however, that if my hard earned money was "wasted" on anything, I'm glad it's Marcus and his R&D - or even R&R - since OOTP has brought me countless hours of pleasant distraction over the years.

I think in our heads and hearts, most of us enjoy that we "beat" this game over time. Some, like me, buy it year in and year out, despite knowing we will handily best the AI in short order. Thus, the creation of personal house rules and frequent requests for an improved AI to present the user a better natural challenge. Which I think is at the root of some people's disdain for what they feel they are seeing in PT. Uncontrolled limits that are either based on random luck (a 400k card drawn) or financial flexibility. Which somehow feels unfair because the feeling is this game can't quite be beat with enough innovation, unlike OOTP, which can be beaten over time due to the limits of the AI.

Is there a right answer? Marcus would have to pay me handsomely in PP to get it if I had it. But, it seems he thought hard about that and put in relegation to remedy it. That it's hard to lose games and have lost seasons seems to be the flip side of being a GM. Wasted "years" happen. Losing Sucks. Strategies must be adjusted in response. From what I've observed, having a team of diamonds and perfects will get a team to the playoffs. But, what wins championships is strategy - suitable park factors, undervalued players, platoons, players that fit your team, individual player strategies, innovative bullpens. And it's baseball....in a playoff series, anything can happen. Braves fans can tell you all about it. It's tough being the Oakland A's or Milwaukee Brewers or Cleveland Indians or Tampa Rays, but those teams make it work, in the same leagues with the Yankees and Redsox and Cubs and who nots. And, obviously as you move up levels, it gets harder. If the Toledo MudHens win the International League & get promoted to MLB, the same things that worked in AAA won't necessarily work in the majors. But, I'm sure they would try to figure out something that would work.

This is a long winded way of saying it's only been 5 or 6 weeks now. An incredibly small sample size. If PT isn't for you, that's cool. Personally, I probably won't play it in OOTP 20, and if I do, it will be F2P to give myself a new challenge. But, a lot of the hand wringing reads like people accustomed to winning that are having a hard time dealing with adversity in a game they are used to dominating. I fully believe in debate, and hope it moves things forward in a productive manner. But, I feel like threads like this do more to push people away than grow the community. And I hope it does grow via PT, as these boards have noticably slowed the last couple of years. Which is a shame because OOTP is, in my opinion, the greatest sports game out there.

Best of luck to all and thank you for taking the time to read this.

[mcdog512]

Interesting post Ozzy. I kind of agree with your points. I had intended to be FTP but here I am about $250 later and at times it bugs me but most of the time I think about how I have so much enjoyed the base game and also PT and this should help it’s development. I think I will mostly be FTP in OOTP 20 but we’ll see.

[traylor45]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

I would hope they can audit all transactions, in effect, go back and see exactly how a team was constructed....when PP's were paid for, what cards were bought for what price, etc etc....and I would hope would do so for the extreme top teams. If I were very wealthy a thousand bucks for a game wouldn't be extreme.Unfortunately for me, I'm not!

I would imagine they can track where all PP originates (in-game achievements vs bought) and tie that out to sells on the AH and packs. If someone's gaming the system, they're going to be doing in through fraudulent achievements somehow, and even then I would think (hope) they have methods in place to spot check large PP gains to see if something fishy happened.

If someone had found a way to illegally obtain PP or "steal" cards on the AH, I would have expected the game to be shut down immediately until they fixed it, as that is essentially giving money away and killing the integrity of the game for anyone else that has actually purchased PP.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by uschi_baerchen

What concerns me more and what should also concern OOTP-Company is that this type of Teams cost more than (conservatively estimated) 1000 Dollars (for 1000 Dollars you get 1.000.000 of perfect Points and I have read, that there are some Bonds/Cobbs/Ruths already bartered for 250.000 PP).

You would get 1.75 million points for $1,000 if you spent it $100 at a time. People that are spending this kind of money aren't doing it $1 at a time.