Pitcher fatigue is very flawed

[spamfilter]

The game seems to treat Starters and Relievers with extremely different fatigue calculations based on pitches thrown, and this leads to all kind of problematic scenarios.

For example, if a starter threw 80 pitches 4 days ago, he's treated as completely recovered, but if a reliever threw 80 pitches 4 days ago, he's treated as completely exhausted still.

And this becomes a huge problem when I have a starter that suffers an injury in the first inning of the game I'm managing. I brought in the next day's starter on four days rest to relieve him. But the game treats this starter as now a reliever, and even though had he started the game he'd have been 80% rested, he was listed as completely exhausted the moment I brought him into the game. He had nothing and walked 2 guys he faced and I had to bring in another reliever. And I exhausted my entire bullpen to get through the game.

Starters should be allowed to come into a game as a "backup starter", where their fatigue is calculated like a starter, and is capable of giving a long outing provided they had 3-4 days of rest coming into the game. Not just for injuries, but for long rain delays, long extra inning games etc.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Yeah I will never use my Starters coming out of the pen except in playoffs when I am not on a 5 man rotation anymore. I make sure I have that setting to prevent the AI from doing it when I sim games as well.

When an injury happens like that you are better off throwing a long reliever out there for 3-4 innings if his stamina is high enough.

The low stamina guys are ok for setup and closer roles but I actually like to get average or above for my middle guys.

[Marsupilami]

i agree that SP should be able to be used as OP suggested.
however, i never use SP as relievers. thats what you have long relievers(emergency SP) for

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by spamfilter

For example, if a starter threw 80 pitches 4 days ago, he's treated as completely recovered, but if a reliever threw 80 pitches 4 days ago, he's treated as completely exhausted still.

I can confirm that this part is true... which simply doesn't make sense, given my understanding of how reliever stamina works in this game. He should have recovered past 0% by this point.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I think the game could benefit from separating middle relievers from long relievers. Like Closers, I think Setup Man, Middle Relief and Long Relief/Spot Starter should all be separate positions. Long Relievers/Spot Starters Stamina could be treated the same as a Starter’s stamina. This could also stop many pitching prospects from becoming MR before being starters but that’s another conversation.


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[Drstrangelove]

Originally Posted by spamfilter

For example, if a starter threw 80 pitches 4 days ago, he's treated as completely recovered, but if a reliever threw 80 pitches 4 days ago, he's treated as completely exhausted still.

1) In my game, Houston's RP threw 44 pitches and he's at 64% tired today. Otoh, I used a starter to relieve 3 days ago and he threw only 28 pitches and he's 57% tired.

2) In another game, a RP threw 71 pitches 2 days ago, and he's 8% exhausted.

3) In another game, a RP threw 79 pitches 4 days ago, and he's 23% exhausted.

4) In another game, a RP threw 55 pitches yesterday, and he's 33% exhausted.

5) In another game, a RP threw 67 pitches 4 days ago, and he's 33% exhausted.

Ime, if you use a reliever (designated as RP or CL), the recovery time ramps up faster than pitch count once the pitcher becomes very tired or exhausted in the game. (When that occurs varies by pitcher's prior usage and his stamina, and perhaps what types of pitches they threw.) It's as if you actually go negative in the recovery time and need 2-3 days just to reach zero. So, zero is shown, but it's really more like negative 25%, for example, so the recovery time will escalate faster than pitch usage.

This would make sense to me. Otherwise, it implies I could put my closer in for 50 pitches (and he'll be exhausted but recover in 3 days), or I could leave him in for 150 pitches (and he'll be exhausted and recover in 3 days.)

Originally Posted by spamfilter

And this becomes a huge problem when I have a starter that suffers an injury in the first inning of the game I'm managing. I brought in the next day's starter on four days rest to relieve him.

Agreed. In this scenario, a starter should be treated like he started, not given pitch counts like he's a 10-20 stamina reliever. Depending on stamina, he should be able to throw 75-120 pitches and be ready to start in 4-5 days as if he had started. Otherwise, it defeats the whole purpose of placing any long relievers or spot starters in the BP, which defeats a major strategy move that's common in postseason.

Of course, had the starter been re-designated by the manager to be a reliever or closer before the game started, that would be a different matter altogether. He should be treated like all other relievers, and while his stamina might allow him to throw more pitches before he dips into his "recovery reserve",
he'd still dip into it and take longer to recover. But assuming he was still shown as an SP, his stamina should reflect that.

[spamfilter]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

I think the game could benefit from separating middle relievers from long relievers. Like Closers, I think Setup Man, Middle Relief and Long Relief/Spot Starter should all be separate positions. Long Relievers/Spot Starters Stamina could be treated the same as a Starter’s stamina. This could also stop many pitching prospects from becoming MR before being starters but that’s another conversation.


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I think this is the best solution, have 3 positions, Starters, Long Relievers, and Short Relievers. And give Long relievers a fatigue formula that is between the 2 extremes which alows them to go 50-60 pitches in an outing but needs 2-3 days rest between these types of outings.

[Reed]

IMHO
If a reliever comes in early (innings 1-3) give him longer stamina but lower his other ratings.
If reliever comes in mid way (innings 4 or 5) give him slighter better stamina and slightly lower other ratings.
If he comes in inning 6 or later, leaves as is.
Or something like that.

[waittilnextyear]

Maybe there can be a little checkbox to "calculate all pitchers' stamina/recovery the same way"?

I'm trying to think of a scenario in MLB this year where my favorite team has even used a starter in relief and I can't think of any. I think this is so rare that you might see it 1 or 2 times per season, mostly likely with a swingman type instead of a bonafide starter, and most likely in a game that goes well past everyone's bedtime. I think if you are managing your bullpen realistically to modern MLB, this situation probably will not arise much and can be solved with a temporary roster move to get a 6th starter on the roster for 1 or 2 days.

[Drstrangelove]

Starters are used often in the postseason in relief. And anyone playing from the 19th century to as late as 1975 should expect to see starters come in for relief.

Johnson, Alexander, Young, Grove, Feller, to mention a few, were used often in relief. It's certainly less common today, but any change has to work for that era as well.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

Maybe there can be a little checkbox to "calculate all pitchers' stamina/recovery the same way"?

I'm trying to think of a scenario in MLB this year where my favorite team has even used a starter in relief and I can't think of any. I think this is so rare that you might see it 1 or 2 times per season, mostly likely with a swingman type instead of a bonafide starter, and most likely in a game that goes well past everyone's bedtime. I think if you are managing your bullpen realistically to modern MLB, this situation probably will not arise much and can be solved with a temporary roster move to get a 6th starter on the roster for 1 or 2 days.

When was the last time it actually happened in real life? Nowadays in a long extra inning game teams seem more likely to go to a Catcher or outfielder with a big arm and hope he can hit the strike zone.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

Maybe there can be a little checkbox to "calculate all pitchers' stamina/recovery the same way"?

I'm trying to think of a scenario in MLB this year where my favorite team has even used a starter in relief and I can't think of any. I think this is so rare that you might see it 1 or 2 times per season, mostly likely with a swingman type instead of a bonafide starter, and most likely in a game that goes well past everyone's bedtime. I think if you are managing your bullpen realistically to modern MLB, this situation probably will not arise much and can be solved with a temporary roster move to get a 6th starter on the roster for 1 or 2 days.

Yeah I its very very rare in regular season unless its a 16th inning game against the team you are chasing or something like that.

Its easier for them to exhaust the bullpen but someone on 10 dl and call someone up. Or if they have options send 2 arms down and call 2 arms up. Wait 7 days and reverse it.

I don't think in OOTP we even have to wait 7 days before recalling someone. When I sim I usually go day by day in case a game goes 15 innings and wipes my pen out I can make some kind of moves.

Helps prevent losing streaks. Or one time I had a August schedule with no days off for like 3 weeks. My arms were obliterated. I had to make so many moves to keep up.

[geoffmatt17]

IMO it's silly that fatigue recovery is based on the assigned position (SP/RP). It should be a simple uniform equation based on stamina and how many pitches thrown.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by geoffmatt17

IMO it's silly that fatigue recovery is based on the assigned position (SP/RP). It should be a simple uniform equation based on stamina and how many pitches thrown.

The idea is that relievers are throwing harder than starters.


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[geoffmatt17]

I have a pitcher assigned as RP, and specifically in a set up role. He pitched 15 pitches yesterday, and nothing else over the previous 5 days. He's got all SP attributes: 3 good pitches, and stamina of 60/80. When he's labeled a RP in game, his rest status is 96%. When I change his label to SP, he's magically 45% tired.

This is why I used the word silly. Not only does that not seem accurate at all, but it certainly doesn't help a GM use his staff appropriately, which is what "rest status" is meant for, no?

[t-bone shuffle]

The true flaw here is the ability to change a pitchers "position" from "Starter" to "Reliever", and vice versa, at any time. Pitcher stamina should be reflected in how the pitcher is used, and should be able to increase/decrease as such.

The biggest flaw here of course is that you can change the "Position" setting of a pitcher, who for example has been a 1 inning reliever for 3 months, into a starter capable of throwing 90 effective pitches, overnight. Simply/ mostly because he carries a stamina rating reflective of a starter. We all know that this scenario is extremely (if not completely) unlikely at the major league level currently.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by geoffmatt17

I have a pitcher assigned as RP, and specifically in a set up role. He pitched 15 pitches yesterday, and nothing else over the previous 5 days. He's got all SP attributes: 3 good pitches, and stamina of 60/80. When he's labeled a RP in game, his rest status is 96%. When I change his label to SP, he's magically 45% tired.

This is why I used the word silly. Not only does that not seem accurate at all, but it certainly doesn't help a GM use his staff appropriately, which is what "rest status" is meant for, no?

The idea here is that Starting Pitchers do a lot more warming up for each appearance. Someone who is preparing to start isn't typically able to throw the next day no matter how short their appearance was. While a RP is prepared to warm up fast and go multiple short stints in a short amount of time.

The general issue which has been mentioned above is that you shouldn't really be able to toggle a guy between these two modes. There should be an adjustment period (particularly when "stretching out" from RP to SP).

[SirMichaelJordan]

Right that’s why I think long relievers/Spot starters should be an actual position to bridge the gap.


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[Drstrangelove]

It's not unrealistic to change a pitcher from starter to reliever and/or vice versa. Guidry, Smoltz, Eckersley, Rivera, Gossage, Wilhelm, Wilbur Wood, Pedro Martinez, Fergie Jenkins did that, just to name a few.

Mechanically, how that's accomplished is another matter. The stretch out time isn't a bad idea, again, depending on how it's done.

But I listened to Smoltz in an interview and he said that it wasn't possible to simply go from one to the other. It took a while to make the transition, but the main point was that it wasn't instant, nor was it physical. It was more mental.

[Critical Mass]

I understand that a RP in the 7th inning throws harder than a SP who started the game. But we are missing the point that if a SP gets injured or ejected in the second inning, the Long Reliever has to be "intelligent enough" to know that he will be needed 3-4 innings, and will need to stretch out his stamina. As the game stands now, he gives it his all with every pitch.