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Old 01-14-2020, 01:15 PM   #61
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If you're a player on a team, do you do what your coach tells you to do or do you take a stand?

Do you benefit from the trash can banging and pick up a few extra hits by knowing an off speed pitch is coming? Or, do you wear earplugs to the plate so you can maintain your own personal purity?

Sounds more and more like this whole process was Cora driven. So, as employees, I'm not sure it was up to the players to put an end to it. Hinch should have went to Crane immediately and made his case for Cora to be dismissed. Instead, he half heartedly tried to vandalize the monitor a couple times and then just said oh well.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by eriqjaffe View Post
A camera in center that sends a signal to a monitor in (or near) the dugout. Somebody keeps an eye on the monitor and makes an audible signal to tip the batter to the pitch.

Here's a good video showing how it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5HxBu7jlc8
Ah, that's funny. Just also listened to Bob Costas explain it as well.

If this is the case, then I'm not sure how everyone wasn't in on it.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:37 PM   #63
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They can't penalize the players because of the players union. If it was one or two players, sure. But this was wide spread. The players union would force MLB to have evidence on every player they are suspending and every act. Then they would force them to come up with evidence that these were the only players. Then they will ask them to match up each infraction with the rulebook and show in the rulebook the suspension parameters. The MLB Player union is much stronger than any other union. MLB isn't going to drag this out for years when it can get it's pound of flesh from the coaches and GMs.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:56 PM   #64
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If this is the case, then I'm not sure how everyone wasn't in on it.
I guess that depends upon what you mean by "in on it." If that means simply knowing about it, then yes, we'd have to assume that just about every player & coach on the team knew about it, although it's possible that some guys up for a cup of coffee may not have known. If, OTOH, you mean receiving the signals when at bat, well, it's my understanding that when it comes to sign-stealing and relaying in general and over the years (not just this particular case of the BlackStros using technology and doing the banging thing), there are players who don't want to know what's coming. So if a few of the players told Cora that he didn't want to know what's coming, I'm sure the scheme took a break for that at-bat.
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:29 PM   #65
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They can't penalize the players because of the players union. If it was one or two players, sure. But this was wide spread. The players union would force MLB to have evidence on every player they are suspending and every act. Then they would force them to come up with evidence that these were the only players. Then they will ask them to match up each infraction with the rulebook and show in the rulebook the suspension parameters. The MLB Player union is much stronger than any other union. MLB isn't going to drag this out for years when it can get it's pound of flesh from the coaches and GMs.
I don't agree with your first sentence (I'd replace it with something like "Manfred is unwilling to battle the players' union over this"), but otherwise, I hear you... Be that as it may, in the end, the players directly and significantly tampered with the outcome of a championship (not limited to that) and thus the integrity of the game. Those players then went COMPLETELY unpunished by MLB. That speaks volumes as to where MLB prioritizes "the integrity of the game."

Actually, I'd rephrase your last sentence, too: "MLB isn't going to drag this out for years when it can get it's pound of flesh from the coaches and GMs in what is primarily just a PR move."
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:50 PM   #66
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MLB may not be willing to take on the union. But they should rethink it. Manfred & his trust should ask themselves "If we had come down hard on the RSox when we caught them using the Apple Watch, instead of just sending out a "strongly-worded memo", would they be in this situation today?" So when the next case happens, will they be asking "what if?" about yesterday's punishment?
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:53 PM   #67
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Just shut up, Pete.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:11 PM   #68
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what Rose did had literally zero impact on the games
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:48 PM   #69
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https://twitter.com/SIYanks/status/1217180321973776385
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:05 PM   #70
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what Rose did had literally zero impact on the games
We have no way of knowing that. As a big Reds fan, I listened to most of the Reds games when he was managing (worked nights, so could have the games on, including full pre and post games).

There were plenty of head-scratching moments when he was managing, including odd uses of the bullpen. At the time I attributed it to him not being a particularly good manager. Once the allegations of him betting on the Reds appeared, there was a little part of me that couldn't help but wonder if any of those decisions were influenced by if he had money on that particular game or not.

Did he bring a reliever out of the bullpen on a 3rd consecutive night because he had a grand riding on that game? Did he sit down Hal Morris (.300+ hitter) and insert himself because he needed to get another hit for his record, and he didn't have any money on that particular game?

To me, that is the truly insidious nature of gambling by active players/coaches. If you use steroids, steal signs, cork bats, it doesn't undermine the feeling, as a fan, that you are trying to win the game. You bring gambling into it and a fan can never be sure if the game is being decided on the field, or behind the scenes. Then you sport just becomes professional wrestling.
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:58 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by jaxmagicman View Post
They can't penalize the players because of the players union. If it was one or two players, sure. But this was wide spread. The players union would force MLB to have evidence on every player they are suspending and every act. Then they would force them to come up with evidence that these were the only players. Then they will ask them to match up each infraction with the rulebook and show in the rulebook the suspension parameters. The MLB Player union is much stronger than any other union. MLB isn't going to drag this out for years when it can get it's pound of flesh from the coaches and GMs.

The union requiring evidence on every player being suspended is completely reasonable.

Now, if the union is saying "you can't penalize players no matter what", which is what you are inferring, that is wrong.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:11 PM   #72
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what Rose did had literally zero impact on the games
Whatever side of the fence you land on the topic, the last person who should give his opinion on upholding the integrity of the game is Pete Rose.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:37 PM   #73
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Selfishly I just want something to be done about the home run epidemic in MLB. The illegal sign-stealing over the last few years probably was a contributing factor, to some degree. So here's hoping the home runs go down and I won't be turning off my TV as often this season.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:22 PM   #74
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Did he sit down Hal Morris (.300+ hitter) and insert himself because he needed to get another hit for his record, and he didn't have any money on that particular game?
Because I'm pedantic, I will point out that Hal Morris wasn't in Cincy when Rose managed.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:47 PM   #75
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The union requiring evidence on every player being suspended is completely reasonable.
Apparently, as part of MLB's investigation, many players were interviewed and admitted to knowing about the scheme, and some admitted to participating in it. Isn't an admission sufficient enough evidence to at least justify some sort of penalty, even if it's a minor fine or suspension?

I get that the union is a major impediment to imposing punishment on the players. But when the main perps in this scheme go completely unpunished, nobody looks good.

- Manfred looks weak for letting guiltiest-of-the-guilty go completely unpunished
- The players look like pampered & protected babies who got off scot-free (cuz they did)
- The union looks like, well, a typical slimy union only interested in its members and not what's right and what's wrong

At this point, the only one looking ok, IMO, is Houston's owner...
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:03 PM   #76
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We're assuming its the union's fault players weren't punished. Maybe its MLB misunderstanding the union's position. Maybe the union is appropriately strong and MLB is weak.

The union is obligated to defend the players to either shoot holes in flimsy evidence or reduce punishment if evidence is good. If MLB didn't want to enter that argument, where the union exercises its responsibilities, that's MLB's fault, not the union's.

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Old 01-14-2020, 07:13 PM   #77
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The union requiring evidence on every player being suspended is completely reasonable.

Now, if the union is saying "you can't penalize players no matter what", which is what you are inferring, that is wrong.
They may say that if there isn't a clear punishment in the bylaws. MLB Players Union is very strong. They cannot allow a punishment without taking it to court and clear and written rules because it would open the door to the commissioner being like Goodell. They may believe they deserve punishment, but their job is to protect all players and the way they do that is fight hard even when it isn't popular.

I would think it would be hard to pinpoint which players cheated and which ones did not and MLB doesn't want to turn this into a 3 year fight with the Union. The Union wouldn't say, 'you can't punish us.'. They are going to say, 'You can't punish THAT player without proof that THAT player cheated.' That could take way too long.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:16 PM   #78
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We're assuming its the union's fault players weren't punished. Maybe its MLB misunderstanding the union's position. Maybe the union is appropriately strong and MLB is weak.

The union is obligated to defend the players to either shoot holes in flimsy evidence or reduce punishment if evidence is good. If MLB didn't want to enter that argument, where the union exercises its responsibilities, that's MLB's fault, not the union's.
That's really the entire ball game. The union has to defend the players. They have to put up a strong defense and demand that MLB show all evidence. MLB really doesn't want to enter into that arena because it would take years to sort out. They want this scandal behind them quickly.

My only concern is, why did they do nothing to the owner. The fine is pennies on the dollar of what he got from the championship.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:27 PM   #79
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My only concern is, why did they do nothing to the owner. The fine is pennies on the dollar of what he got from the championship.
No offense, but I'm having a hard time understanding this perspective. Both Manfred's report and the owner himself did a pretty good job of indicating that the owner knew nothing of the scheme. Yet you want him punished more than he already was, and seem to be ok with the main offenders facing absolutely zero punishment.

If it's from the perspective of "he should've known," then I think that applies to the GM, but not necessarily the owner. According to the reports, the GM barely knew. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that the owner wouldn't have been informed. So why punish him more than he already was, and let the players completely off? Simply because it's easier?
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:30 PM   #80
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I am curious if the steroid-hard liners on entrance to the hall will want to sniff out all that may be involved this; both in Houston and elsewhere? Will Jose Altuve and George Springer be a 'purist' voter litmus test one day? Surely Mookie Betts has to be looked at a little differently now after playing under Cora - right?
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