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Old 01-13-2020, 10:54 PM   #41
Cobra Mgr
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This is a society that puts mothers, fathers, husbands etc in jail for an ounce of weed, petty theft, leave them in prison because they can't make bail even when they haven't been convicted. No one shows concern for the families left crippled by losing their caregivers & bread winners. Yet, the MLB is going to make us believe they are too impotent to punish their employees for cheating because it is too difficult? Because we don't want to put other clubs who now own their services under any difficulties? Because we don't want the fans to suffer thru potential extra losses?
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
This is a society that puts mothers, fathers, husbands etc in jail for an ounce of weed, petty theft, leave them in prison because they can't make bail even when they haven't been convicted. No one shows concern for the families left crippled by losing their caregivers & bread winners. Yet, the MLB is going to make us believe they are too impotent to punish their employees for cheating because it is too difficult? Because we don't want to put other clubs who now own their services under any difficulties? Because we don't want the fans to suffer thru potential extra losses?
This is an excellent point

Because parents go to jail for marijuana, MLB players should have harsher punishments.

Makes perfect sense



MLB is a business
The players, and the teams, are the products

They aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by suspending nearly the entire Astros roster for the season, meaning the fans won't watch, and may not come back next year. Fans come to see Altuve and Springer not Luhnow and Hinch

So, this serves as a warning.

If players get caught in the future, I'd imagine they will face punishment

Some people are quicker to their torches and pitchforks than others
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:44 AM   #43
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:58 AM   #44
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The MLB statement reads like there was a meeting "We don't want to punish any players so let's come up with some reasons". The idea of not being able to identify all the perpetrators is lame. The idea some are playing for other teams is irrelevant. The idea that the true degree of involvement can't be determined so any punishment would not be fairly applied .... gee, let's let the guilty go because we don't know if we have all the guilty.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:26 AM   #45
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BLAME, PUNISHMENT, VERDICT

BLAME: BlackStros' owner Jim Crane: Did he know about it? He says he didn't. We may never know... He very well may not have, or maybe at most heard rumblings. He's an owner, possibly flying miles above the minutiae of what's going on in the clubhouse. Responsible as the owner of the team? Yes. But actually responsible? Not really.
PUNISHMENT: $5 million. That's peanuts to Crane, but that's the most a commish can fine an owner, so there's no point debating it... Crane also had to fire his GM and manager, and the replacements he hires will have to deal with the loss of draft picks.
VERDICT: Seems about right given Crane's likely insignificant amount of responsibility for the cheating, and the parameters of what the commissioner can do... although I would've added severe restrictions on how the BlackStros can display and acknowledge their 2017 titles (more on that way below).

BLAME: GM Jeff Luhnow: He claims he didn't know about it. Too soon, IMO, to make a determination as to whether that's believable or not.
PUNISHMENT: One year suspension, and got fired by Crane.
VERDICT: The suspension seems about right if he didn't know about it, because even if he didn't, he should have known. If he did know about it the suspension should've much been longer... As for the firing, it makes sense either way from a business continuity perspective, and from a "there's no time like the present to begin trying to put this ugly chapter behind us" perspective... Also, by many accounts, Luhnow was at the top of an overall baseball-operation culture that was arrogant and condescending to many people, including "low-level" employees and others around the team (and I'm assuming he was the one who hired former and disgraced Asst GM Brandon Taubman). In addition, he was presumably the one who spearheaded the effort to trade for Roberto Osuna. So he's not getting any sympathy from me...

BLAME: Manager AJ Hinch: He knew about it. He claims he tried to stop it by disconnecting and even smashing video monitors. What else should he have done about it? Well, as the clubhouse and dugout leader of the team, the players have to know he has their back. But not, of course, if they are committing major violations of rules that are in place to protect the integrity of the game. How could he have shut it down without "losing" his team and/or being seen as "the snitch?" I'll concede that he was in a difficult spot. However, if he were a strong enough man and leader, he could've put a stop to it without losing the respect of his team... And one has to wonder, why couldn't he have simply gone to his coach (Alex Cora - the apparent ringleader) and told him that it has to stop immediately? And this, in turn, begs the question: If Hinch was actually against the cheating scheme to where he was destroying video monitors to try to stop it, what sort of conversations was he having with Alex Cora about it? So count me as highly suspicious of Hinch's "opposition" to the scheme. (Methinks Hinch's video monitor thrashings were merely premeditated attempts at producing exculpatory evidence to be used later...)
PUNISHMENT: One year suspension, and he got axed by Crane.
VERDICT: As close as he was to the situation, and admitting to knowing about it, one year doesn't seem like enough. I would have given him three years. As for being fired, he had to go, just like Luhnow, if the Astros are to eventually put this behind them.

BLAME: Bench Coach (at the time) Alex Cora: Apparently, he was the ringleader.
PUNISHMENT: Has yet to come down but is expected to be severe. In my book, based upon what is known at the moment and not factoring in his cheating with the Red Sox, a lifetime ban is appropriate (with provisions for eventual reinstatement). From his leadership position, to not only know about it but to be the one coordinating it, that's almost unforgivable.

BLAME: BlackStros Players
PUNISHMENT: None, officially. Though, they will have to deal with the questions, and the figurative asterisks on both their 2017 title and the portion of their career that was impacted by the scheme.
VERDICT: "They got off light" doesn't begin to describe it...

Before going into more about the categories of players and what their punishment, IMO, should've been, I'll explain why I feel a comparison to the 1919 Black Sox - and thus a lifetime ban - is not quite appropriate:

The Black Sox accepted money to throw a World Series. The BlackStros broke the rules in order to get an edge. That one team broke known rules in an effort to lose and another broke known rules in an effort to win is of ZERO consequence to me, per se. In each case, their willful actions heavily tainted the results of the sports' championship. However, from the Black Sox players' perspective, there can be no doubt that they knew what they were doing was just plain wrong, clear as day. From the BlackStros players' perspective, however, a case could be made that while they knew they were breaking the rules, they were just taking the age-old craft of sign-stealing to higher levels. That's no excuse for breaking the rules, but is a significant differentiation from the Black Sox, IMO.

At any rate, IMO, if Manfred had any grapes at all, he would've administered something like the following punishments to the players and coaches:

1) For all batters deemed to have participated in the scheme, and all other coaches, a two-year suspension.
2) For all other players (pitchers, and batters to where it's not conclusively determined that they participated in the scheme), a one-year suspension.
3) For all players on the roster, and all coaches, they would have to return their rings. Reinstatement after suspension would be contingent, among other things, upon the return of their rings by a certain very-near-in-the-future date.
4) For all players and coaches, all prize money received from winning the 2017 Division, AL, and World Series would have to be returned (some sort of charity donation would make sense).

(I would certainly be sympathetic to September call-ups and other fringe two-weeks-in-the-majors type players who may have been only peripherally aware of the scheme, and would therefore show serious leniency for them in an appeals process. I mean, do we really expect a wide-eyed kid called up from double-A - who's suddenly surrounded by his idols - to become a whistle-blower?)

In addition, the organization would be prohibited from displaying or advertising anything that references or alludes to their 2017 Division, AL, or World Series championships. In perpetuity. No 2017 banners or trophies in the stadium. No 10-year celebration in 2027. No 2017 commemorative promo items given to fans. Nothing in the team store that references 2017.

Are these harsh penalties? Sure. But, to borrow from Cobra Mgr, if you are serious about deterring prohibited behavior that is unquestionably detrimental to the game, you have to do be serious about administering punishment to those responsible from breaking those rules. Without question, Manfred did no such thing when it comes to those MOST responsible, the players.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:05 AM   #46
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Again,
People really love them some pitchforks and torches

People thinking it'd be really great, or necessary, for MLB to ban some of it's best players for a year or twp.

As to : if you are serious about deterring prohibited behavior that is unquestionably detrimental to the game, you have to do be serious about administering punishment to those responsible from breaking those rules

What is that based on?

If we have no more allegations of the Astros(or other teams) using technology to steal signs, are people still going to say that the punishment wasn't harsh enough? If everyone just goes back to banging on trashcans, then, sure, the response wasn't effective. But, if they don't?

There are tons of studies that show that punishment is not a deterrent. Harsher penalties don't change people s behavior, what does is the risk of getting caught.

Teams, and players, know MLB is going to be watching for this in the future
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:09 AM   #47
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The only other step I would have taken it officially stripping the title. The investigation discovered intentional cheating and they reported it as such, it is completely illegitimate. There isn't enough proof of who did what to suspend individual players who are all over the league now.

Rings themselves are whatever. Don't mandate anything then anyone with character would turn them in themselves.

Last edited by dkgo; 01-14-2020 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:12 AM   #48
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Again,
People really love them some pitchforks and torches

People thinking it'd be really great, or necessary, for MLB to ban some of it's best players for a year or twp.

As to : if you are serious about deterring prohibited behavior that is unquestionably detrimental to the game, you have to do be serious about administering punishment to those responsible from breaking those rules

What is that based on?

If we have no more allegations of the Astros(or other teams) using technology to steal signs, are people still going to say that the punishment wasn't harsh enough? If everyone just goes back to banging on trashcans, then, sure, the response wasn't effective. But, if they don't?

There are tons of studies that show that punishment is not a deterrent. Harsher penalties don't change people s behavior, what does is the risk of getting caught.

Teams, and players, know MLB is going to be watching for this in the future
So maybe Major League Baseball needs to hire dugout and bullpen monitors to be their eyes and ears in regards to cheating.

I wonder if Trevor Bauer's spin rate comments a ways back should be taken a little more seriously now that we know the Astros are dirty?
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:20 AM   #49
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Is it safe to say the Red Sox cheated better than the Astros in the 2018 ALCS?
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:32 AM   #50
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Does anyone know that the Astros (and Red Sox) won the World Series because of cheating? If it is known, then I'm okay with stripping their titles. If it's just a guess, then leave the titles be.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:34 AM   #51
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Your argument is that cheating shouldn't be punished as long as you might have won anyway?

That is one hell of a take
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:38 AM   #52
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Does anyone know that the Astros (and Red Sox) won the World Series because of cheating? If it is known, then I'm okay with stripping their titles. If it's just a guess, then leave the titles be.
How could anyone know that?

How would one go about finding that out?



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Is it safe to say the Red Sox cheated better than the Astros in the 2018 ALCS?
Similarly, no

Maybe the Red Sox "cheated better" but the Astros played much better baseball
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:47 AM   #53
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Does anyone know that the Astros (and Red Sox) won the World Series because of cheating? If it is known, then I'm okay with stripping their titles. If it's just a guess, then leave the titles be.
Don't know where I saw this at but yesterday there was a report that the Astro's went 8-1 at home in the playoffs one year and 3-6 away from home. I believe this was an attempt to show at home, with help, they won more.

Again I have no idea where I saw this information or how true it is.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:55 AM   #54
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Don't know where I saw this at but yesterday there was a report that the Astro's went 8-1 at home in the playoffs one year and 3-6 away from home. I believe this was an attempt to show at home, with help, they won more.

Again I have no idea where I saw this information or how true it is.
Yeah the guys on MLB radio were going over that this morning. The Astros stats at home during the 2017 post season were noticeably better at home. Of course, lots of things play into that, but when there's smoke there's usually coughing.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:28 AM   #55
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Similarly, no

Maybe the Red Sox "cheated better" but the Astros played much better baseball
Well, since the Red Sox won that series easily (4-1), they must have done something better.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:40 AM   #56
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Well, since the Red Sox won that series easily (4-1), they must have done something better.
Other way around then

The point remains, the idea that cheating makes you win is overly simplistic
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:04 PM   #57
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Other way around then

The point remains, the idea that cheating makes you win is overly simplistic
Spoken like a Patriots fan! (What is the emoji for "runs away, dodging thrown rocks!"?)
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:13 PM   #58
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Spoken like a Patriots fan! (What is the emoji for "runs away, dodging thrown rocks!"?)
I was an Eagles fan
But I've pretty much forgotten about the NFL


A decent consideration of the Astros' punishment

It asks, if not answers, what is the purpose of the punishment.
Note: to satisfy the angry villagers is "Optics"

https://www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/01/...mpression=true
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:35 PM   #59
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Other way around then

The point remains, the idea that cheating makes you win is overly simplistic
I wasn't suggesting that at all, I was having fun with the whole ordeal. Thus the smilie -
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:53 PM   #60
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How does the logistics in this whole thing work? There is a device in CF that reads the catcher's sign to the pitcher, then relays that to the batter?
A camera in center that sends a signal to a monitor in (or near) the dugout. Somebody keeps an eye on the monitor and makes an audible signal to tip the batter to the pitch.

Here's a good video showing how it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5HxBu7jlc8
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