Help with Yo-Yo effect between Gold and Diamond

[pgjocki]

Disclaimer: I am not complaining and I am asking for feedback as F2P player.

My team has been moderately successful in that I have won a World Series at the Silver Level and have a lifetime record of 660-613 as of today's last simulation before submitting this post.

I worked my way up quickly to Gold and after two seasons of 76 and 77 wins I finally broke out with a 91 win season and got promoted to Diamond where I proceeded to get shelled and put up a poor 61 win season. It was very clear I didn't have a team that could compete at Diamond and now that I am back in Gold I have a record of 87-52 with exactly the same team for the second best record in the league and another promotion back to Diamond most likely next week.

My question is what can I do to get off this yo-yo between Gold and Diamond? I can't seem to figure out why my starting pitchers are absolute studs at Gold and forget how to pitch at Diamond. My starting 5 are as follows:

1 - Stephen Strasburg / Gold 89 2017 Historical All-Star
2 - Steve Carlton / Gold 87 Historical Legend
3 - Larry Dierker / Gold 83 1969 Unsung Hero
4 - Franklin Perez / Silver 75 Future Legend
5 - Harvey Haddix / Bronze 68 1959 Unsung Hero

I also have a few who have been starters but who have not pitched well at Gold or Diamond:

1 - David Cone / Bronze 68 1999 Historical All-Star
2 - Brent Honeywell / Silver 81 Future Legend

I know my bullpen needs some work and I have gotten very poor results from Andrew Miller (Silver 78) and Kenley Jansen (Silver 71) and from what I've read here I think it has to do with poor movement ratings but I'm not 100% certain if I need the same type of ratings for relievers as starters.

I have 9,000 PP now as I have been saving up after giving in and buying Trout to man CF for me and he has 5.7 WAR this year in Gold.

So, any thoughts on if I should make a big upgrade or look for two or three slots that can make a difference?

Also, what did you do to stick around at Diamond?

Thanks,

[Orcin]

Your starting rotation only has one pitcher (Dierker) that can handle Diamond. Your pitchers face many more good hitters with power there, especially RH hitters that kill LHP. So yes, you need better pitching to stick at diamond, especially RH starters with high (70+) movement ratings.

[bobbycockstrong]

I had the same problem myself with a pack only team. When PT started, I quickly ascended to diamond. Even made the playoffs once. But after a few season of winning 80-90+ games, the quality in the league just became too good for my rag tag pack only outfit. I had an awful season, 60something wins, and relegation.

But then last season im dominating gold, win division. Lose in Div round so i didnt get promoted back up to diamond. My team is not good though, so i suspect that is for the best. Again im dominating gold this season, 1st in div with healthy lead. If I get promoted, I know my team will not fare well unless I make some miracle pack pulls.

Ive seen others suggest that there is arguably a missing tier between diamond and perfect, so you have so much quality in diamond that are not even good enough for perfect, and thus your team is usually a punching bag in this scenario.

Thats not to say you cant improve your team. I just think you probably hit a point where guys like miller and jensen are not going to consistently cut it in a good diamond league. Same with SPs, maybe your first 3 are decent enough, if not going to consistently dominate, but I suspect you will have to upgrade 4 and 5. Thats not to say 4 and 5 cant randomly do well for you. I have a 75 sixto sanchez future card, and one season he is like un-hittable, the next he is rubbish. Same with Mike Mussina (who isnt a good card to begin with, but just saying).

Also, not sure what your actual team looks like, but if you have decent hitters who all have awful defensive ratings like 50something, then that could be another gap that separates you from better diamond teams.

Thats mostly just a stream of consciousness, so take it for whatever its worth (if anything haha).

[pgjocki]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Your starting rotation only has one pitcher (Dierker) that can handle Diamond. Your pitchers face many more good hitters with power there, especially RH hitters that kill LHP. So yes, you need better pitching to stick at diamond, especially RH starters with high (70+) movement ratings.

Thanks, I appreciate the brutal honesty and now have something to start looking at and working towards.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DonkeyKongSr]

What Orcin said. In Diamond and Perfect starting pitching pretty much becomes the #1 need. Nearly all LH SP and low movement guys will balloon up to 4+ ERA in Diamond then 5+ in Perfect.

[zrog2000]

I'd look at Barker and Syndergaard.

[old timer]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

I'd look at Barker and Syndergaard.

Agreed. And consider Chris Carpenter too.

[daves]

The 89 Strasburg is actually better than the Diamond Strasburg. He can pitch in the bottom of the rotation or relief at the next level.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

What Orcin said. In Diamond and Perfect starting pitching pretty much becomes the #1 need. Nearly all LH SP and low movement guys will balloon up to 4+ ERA in Diamond then 5+ in Perfect.

What would you consider a low movement rating for Diamond? Most of mine are 60 or higher although Dizzy Dean is 58.

[Orcin]

You could improve a lot by simply replacing Haddix with Len Barker or a good movement gold like Tiny Bonham.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by Orcin

You could improve a lot by simply replacing Haddix with Len Barker or a good movement gold like Tiny Bonham.

I picked up Cisco Carlos for my Gold team yesterday. 80 movement, serviceable stuff (66) and control (69) for only 5000 PP. He doesn't appear on the market often, though.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

What would you consider a low movement rating for Diamond? Most of mine are 60 or higher although Dizzy Dean is 58.

Most of the best pitchers in the game are 70+. Anything less and you need a good Stuff+Control to offset the extra HR you'll be giving up. That's off the top of my head, but perhaps after this regular season ends tonight, I'll do some real analysis of my 3 leagues (a gold, diamond, and perfect) to tease out what a better answer is.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

What would you consider a low movement rating for Diamond? Most of mine are 60 or higher although Dizzy Dean is 58.

Honestly, once you get to Diamond, even things in the 60s start getting shaky unless if they have high ratings in the other categories. I find DIamond is about the level that guys like Barker and Corbin start looking better in the bullpen than the rotation.

Another thing to keep in mind for the OP is that I believe Perez is one of the guys with a big platoon split on his card. He might be more valuable as a RH Specialist in the bullpen (or perhaps RH specialist/long reliever to let him eat low leverage innings). Replacing him (and Haddix) with a couple starters (Barker/Corbin/Bonham, even a guy like Dennis Martinez works too as a #5 guy) could help improve both the rotation and the bullpen. But to really compete at Diamond, you do need to start adding the "big" SP arms, although obviously they get expensive.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

Most of the best pitchers in the game are 70+. Anything less and you need a good Stuff+Control to offset the extra HR you'll be giving up. That's off the top of my head, but perhaps after this regular season ends tonight, I'll do some real analysis of my 3 leagues (a gold, diamond, and perfect) to tease out what a better answer is.

That would be awesome. It's something I've really not been paying close attention to. I have a 96 Koufax who has been effective in Diamond but it sounds like he might not be the best in Perfect if I get promoted. He's 117 stuff 60 move 61 control.


edit: Not sure who CrazyWR was addressing but this season I have .900 for both LH&RH batters for HRs. Since I picked up ole George H Ruth I may change that next year to bring in the RF fence.

[CrazyWR]

what are your ballpark #s?

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

But to really compete at Diamond, you do need to start adding the "big" SP arms, although obviously they get expensive.

[daves]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

LOL. Accurate depiction of the Perfect leagues.

[CrazyWR]

I was asking the OP. You should set your ballpark settings and then build your team to fit that playstyle. Obviously if you want neutral, then you need to just get the best available players, which others have covered, but consider slanting your park one way or another to give yourself a home field advantage in some way.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

What Orcin said. In Diamond and Perfect starting pitching pretty much becomes the #1 need. Nearly all LH SP and low movement guys will balloon up to 4+ ERA in Diamond then 5+ in Perfect.

With your stats/spreadsheets, have you taken a look at overall ERA for LHP as they move to Diamond and Perfect? I'm curious what it shows. In the leagues I have stats for, there was only about a 0.30 jump in ERA. However, some of the reason it isn't as high as it is for an individual pitcher is because there are some lower pitchers who don't get the innings in Perfect while higher quality LHP might join Perfect that weren't in Diamond or Perfect.

It would be interesting to use a population of LHP that are consistent with their innings in both (getting a large enough sample size) to see how they perform overall.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

With your stats/spreadsheets, have you taken a look at overall ERA for LHP as they move to Diamond and Perfect? I'm curious what it shows. In the leagues I have stats for, there was only about a 0.30 jump in ERA. However, some of the reason it isn't as high as it is for an individual pitcher is because there are some lower pitchers who don't get the innings in Perfect while higher quality LHP might join Perfect that weren't in Diamond or Perfect.

It would be interesting to use a population of LHP that are consistent with their innings in both (getting a large enough sample size) to see how they perform overall.

I don't have actual stat logs (if I analyze anything, it's current season only), so that stuff is more anecdotal. I'm probably blowing the numbers a bit out of proportion, but it's obvious looking at leaderboards that RHP with Movement dominate.

In my small sample size of one Perfect League, here's the makeup of the SP with sub-4 ERAs.

66 Pitchers:
21% LHP (Sale, Hubbell, Kershaw, Randy, Keuchel, and Koufax are the only names among the 14 players)
79% RHP

60+ MOV = 98% (a 99 Kershaw is the only exception)
70+ MOV = 56%
80+ MOV = 21%
90+ MOV = 5% (the 3 Keuchels)

Gold+ = 98% (a Barker is the only exception)
Diamond+ = 88%
Perfect = 24%

2 Perfect Pedros absolutely dominate the league as the only sub-2 ERAs.