Don't be a brownoser-The Bluenoser Interview

[The Wolf]

If you defend or endorse steroid users you are defending people who are criminals - despite the smoke, their use was illegal by 1998 under federal law - who were also liars (see the Congressional hearings), deceivers, cheats, and most of all frauds.

I can't see anyone with both a conscience and a sense of decency and fair play ever being able to support that package.

“The guys who have cheated have created an uneven playing field, and I don’t have any sympathy for them." - Brooks Robinson

"“Fans aren’t stupid. Fans know that Hank Aaron is the all-time leading home run hitter." - Bert Blyleven

[D-BacksJosh]

Originally Posted by rpriske

(Oh, to address the specific apparent discrepency, much like how certain local by-laws work, if you announce something is not allowed, but include no monitoring or potential punishment, then it is not, in any practical way, disallowed. Really it is nothing more than a request.

This is not just my view, it is actually the view of some pretty major legal thinkers. I studied it when I took law classes - about such lofty topics as leash laws or no trespassing signs. If a law is compeltely unenforced, and you later try to enforce it without any further notification, the courts will generally throw it out because the accused had no reason to believe it was ACTUALLY and PRACTICALLY agaisnt the 'law'. The 1991 memo would certainly fall under that category. It was meaningless, other than as a warning that real rules were coming. Eventually they did arrive, and as I have said multiple times, I have no problem with punishing players who have broken the rules since then. I just have a problem with players being encouraged to act in a certain way - as they certainly were - and then punishing them for it.)

Indeed, MLB 'allowed' players to cheat. But it is still cheating. Players knew it was cheating. Cheating is a matter of integrity, it is not really a matter of awareness of the law. Unless they were 'dumb as a brick' (as OOTP puts it) players knew there was going to be a crackdown eventually, because they knew they were cheating and that cheating is wrong, illegal or not, that is why they kept it hidden from the public. The ones that cheated without caring (Barry Bonds) wanted to get as much cheating in as possible before this crackdown happened, and why not? They could always blame the MLB for not 'enforcing' them to have integrity. The ones that cheated because others were cheating are still cheaters. The ones that didn't cheat had integrity, and even more so because they were put at a major disadvantage as a consequence of having it.

[rpriske]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

The ones that didn't cheat had integrity, and even more so because they were put at a major disadvantage as a consequence of having it.

This is our primary area of disagreement... I don't think these people really existed... unless they never had any sort injury. The general understanding that steroids helped a player recover from injury faster was very wide-spread and even players who were in no way trying to 'bulk up' used steroids to help them heal. Prior to the crack down, I don't think anyone within the games, from players to trainers to coaches to managers to owners, considered that cheating.

If you don't consider this cheating (I am not talking about you, because it sounds like you WOULD), then you have to determine a player's intent, which is very hard to do.


`````````````

A side point I mentioned earlier, but was lost in the moon, was that I find it incredibly odd that when a player got caught straight up, blatantly cheating... like doctoring balls or bats, it was considered an interesting story and gave the player character. Yet on this topic, out comes the pitchforks. I really think it is because of the anti-drug propaganda that Americans have been fed on a regular basis... but that is just my opinion of course.

The funny thing is that there is no real reason for steroids to be illegal, any more than there is any real reason for marijuana to be illegal. BUT, there IS a real reason for MLB (and other organized sports) to ban them. I am all for that.

Speaking of 'legal' things that give an unfair competitive advantage... what Bonds was REALLY doing that should have been banned is coming to the plate wearing damn-near full body armour. That stuff needs to be regulated a little more.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

Indeed, MLB 'allowed' players to cheat. But it is still cheating. Players knew it was cheating. Cheating is a matter of integrity, it is not really a matter of awareness of the law. Unless they were 'dumb as a brick' (as OOTP puts it) players knew there was going to be a crackdown eventually, because they knew they were cheating and that cheating is wrong, illegal or not, that is why they kept it hidden from the public. The ones that cheated without caring (Barry Bonds) wanted to get as much cheating in as possible before this crackdown happened, and why not? They could always blame the MLB for not 'enforcing' them to have integrity. The ones that cheated because others were cheating are still cheaters. The ones that didn't cheat had integrity, and even more so because they were put at a major disadvantage as a consequence of having it.

Good points. I think the biggest problem is, we have no idea how many players were cheating. We simply have no way of knowing. I think we all would be floored if we knew the identities of all that used. I also think it's naive to think that the Hall doesn't already have an abuser or 2 enshrined.

[silvam14]

Ok, I've had enough of this! Why couldn't there be a knock down-drag out fight on my interview thread? Jealous of Bluenoser!

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

Every time I see a thread explode like this, I am so glad that I'm at the point of my life where I'd rather be happy than right.

I rather be both, but that makes for lonely parties of one.

Originally Posted by silvam14

Ok, I've had enough of this! Why couldn't there be a knock down-drag out fight on my interview thread? Jealous of Bluenoser!

Well I hate for it to come out like this but...you'e just not cool enough. And your post count is too small.

[D-BacksJosh]

Originally Posted by rpriske

This is our primary area of disagreement... I don't think these people really existed... unless they never had any sort injury. The general understanding that steroids helped a player recover from injury faster was very wide-spread and even players who were in no way trying to 'bulk up' used steroids to help them heal. Prior to the crack down, I don't think anyone within the games, from players to trainers to coaches to managers to owners, considered that cheating.

If you don't consider this cheating (I am not talking about you, because it sounds like you WOULD), then you have to determine a player's intent, which is very hard to do.


`````````````

A side point I mentioned earlier, but was lost in the moon, was that I find it incredibly odd that when a player got caught straight up, blatantly cheating... like doctoring balls or bats, it was considered an interesting story and gave the player character. Yet on this topic, out comes the pitchforks. I really think it is because of the anti-drug propaganda that Americans have been fed on a regular basis... but that is just my opinion of course.

The funny thing is that there is no real reason for steroids to be illegal, any more than there is any real reason for marijuana to be illegal. BUT, there IS a real reason for MLB (and other organized sports) to ban them. I am all for that.

Speaking of 'legal' things that give an unfair competitive advantage... what Bonds was REALLY doing that should have been banned is coming to the plate wearing damn-near full body armour. That stuff needs to be regulated a little more.

There are major health differences between anabolic steroids and marijuana. Both are not entirely illegal, they are 'regulated' however, so either can be obtained with a prescription (if you live in the right state for marijuana of course). I am not a supporter of the government protecting me from myself. I think it is hypocrisy that alcohol is legal and marijuana is not. I am sure that if the government finds a way to effectively tax marijuana that it will become legal in a heartbeat. That's American politics.

The issue here is cheating. There is a huge difference between taking steroids to recover from an injury because a physician recommended it and taking steroids to give you superpowers on the field. I can understand giving leniency to those for the former because they are using it to heal themselves (this is can also be a legal reason to obtain a steroid prescription) and probably shouldn't be considered cheating, but not to those in the latter as they are intentionally using it to cheat (an illegal use of steroids). The question remains should they be allowed in the HOF, and I still support the position that the HOF requires some sort of character and integrity coupled with performance. Its the tainted character and integrity of these individuals that I have a problem with, whose performance numbers are no doubt influenced by their decision. I highly doubt that anyone made it to the HOF solely because of a corked bat, the same cannot be said about steroid abuse.

[D-BacksJosh]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Good points. I think the biggest problem is, we have no idea how many players were cheating. We simply have no way of knowing. I think we all would be floored if we knew the identities of all that used. I also think it's naive to think that the Hall doesn't already have an abuser or 2 enshrined.

I totally agree. But when we do find a player out, should they be given a free pass because we don't know who else was doing it? Or should an example be made to enhance the ability to enforce cheating rules in the future. There has to be consequences at some point in time.

[The Wolf]

The belief that "everybody used" is simply insane. There are players with too much integrity to ever use them. Integrity in baseball, as in all human endeavors, runs on a bell curve, and for every juicer, lawyer, politician or Pete Rose or Barry Bonds on the low end there is a corresponding decent person on the high end.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

I totally agree. But when we do find a player out, should they be given a free pass because we don't know who else was doing it? Or should an example be made to enhance the ability to enforce cheating rules in the future. There has to be consequences at some point in time.

This.

[iverbure]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

If you defend or endorse steroid users you are defending people who are criminals - despite the smoke, their use was illegal by 1998 under federal law - who were also liars (see the Congressional hearings), deceivers, cheats, and most of all frauds.

I can't see anyone with both a conscience and a sense of decency and fair play ever being able to support that package.

“The guys who have cheated have created an uneven playing field, and I don’t have any sympathy for them." - Brooks Robinson

"“Fans aren’t stupid. Fans know that Hank Aaron is the all-time leading home run hitter." - Bert Blyleven

so you have no problem with Hank Aaron being in the HOF?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by iverbure

so you have no problem with Hank Aaron being in the HOF?

Troll much under a 9-post alias?

[iverbure]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Troll much under a 9-post alias?

i joined like a year ago i just don't post much. i don't know who you think is trolling you, probably someone earlier in the post but i promise you this is not the case. i just want to know if you have a problem with Hank Aaron being in the HOF. or Willie Mays.

if there is a way to prove i am not another poster posting under this account please let me know what i need to do. I've had this login in literally every forum i've ever signed up for. twitter, hotmail, everything.

again just want to know if you have a problem with either one of those players in the HOF

[Pat Gillick]

<--------- *Ran out of popcorn. Needs more.*

[iverbure]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

If you defend or endorse steroid users you are defending people who are criminals - despite the smoke, their use was illegal by 1998 under federal law - who were also liars (see the Congressional hearings), deceivers, cheats, and most of all frauds.

I can't see anyone with both a conscience and a sense of decency and fair play ever being able to support that package.

“The guys who have cheated have created an uneven playing field, and I don’t have any sympathy for them." - Brooks Robinson

"“Fans aren’t stupid. Fans know that Hank Aaron is the all-time leading home run hitter." - Bert Blyleven

So again do you think Hank Aaron should be in the HOF? or Willie Mays?