You Be the Manager

Cap · 06-22-2012, 10:41 AM

OK. Here's the setup. You've got a heavyweight, 22 years old, with a limited amateur background. His record stands at 16(5)-1-1 in mostly 4-6 rounders in Jersey and Brooklyn against guys Joe Public never heard of, who had even less experience than your boy. Only 3 of these pugs had winning records and three of your 16 wins are against the same poor jamoke.

You get an offer to fight a six-rounder in Yankee Stadium, but the other guy is a really slick young boxer unbeaten in more than 20 fights over a one year period. He's beaten a few good boys like Steve King and Jimmy Evans, and veterans like Tony Gangemi and Oscar Goode. The odds are not in your favour.

Do you turn it down and go after a good fighter who your boy can probably beat and try to build him up gradually, or do you take the offer?

Cap

damientheomen3 · 06-22-2012, 10:56 AM

Take it. A win there would do wonders for your popularity.

Cap · 06-22-2012, 02:40 PM

But a whipping in front of a big crowd at Yankee Stadium could ruin your prospects...

Cap

damientheomen3 · 06-22-2012, 03:23 PM

Meh, he hasn't really fought anyone yet anyway. It's not like losing to this super prospect will knock him down much.

shane6969 · 06-22-2012, 07:21 PM

Knock it back mate, play it safe.

Syd Thrift · 06-22-2012, 07:28 PM

Who did your guy lose and draw to? Is there anything in the super-prospect's record that leads you to believe that your guy matches up with him well?

Frankly I'd be a bit skittish to match a guy like this up with top-ranked talent until you had slowly pushed him into being legit in that role. A bad loss could blow up his career before it ever even started.

professordp · 06-23-2012, 10:08 AM

A little more information needed. Your boxer's style? How does he match up against guys who are "slick"?

Is this nationally televised/pay-per-view?

Overall, I'd be inclined to take the offer. After sixteen fights against "red meat", it's time to step up and see what this guy really has in him.

He's twenty-two and he's not going to go any further if he continues to fight stiffs in smoke-filled venues.

So what if he takes a pounding and loses! You now know where he's weak and where he's strong. So you work with him in these areas to make him a better fighter. Many times failure is the ultimate teacher.

He's only twenty-two, and if he has the "right stuff" he'll bounce back. If he can't, he doesn't belong in the fight game.

Of course, you'd want to think positive. This is the kid's big break, and if he wins, he takes a nice big step forward.

Nothing ventured...nothing gained!

Cap · 06-23-2012, 07:46 PM

One further bit of information, the slick boxer was none other than Roland LaStarza.

Cap

pilight · 06-23-2012, 11:51 PM

Much depends on how good you think your fighter is.

If you do not think he is as good as his record, you take the fight for what is likely to be his biggest payday ever.

If you think he has championship potential, then you only take the fight if you think he can win it.

professordp · 06-24-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap

One further bit of information, the slick boxer was none other than Roland LaStarza.

Cap

Regardless, I'd still take the shot. Maybe my kid is another Marciano who had a tough first bout with Roland but learned from the experience and improved as a fighter.

These "good boys" you mention were all undercard fighters...did any of them ever fight a ten round main event? From what I see they themselves were six to eight round trial horses.

At this juncture, La Starza is himself a twenty-one year old kid...not the polished pro of the early 1950s. And twenty fights in one year...hmmm.

So worse case scenario my guy gets a boxing lesson from La Starza. If he doesn't learn something, he should be on the Hoboken waterfont unloading cargo ships with Brando.

Cap · 06-24-2012, 01:33 PM

Oke. The majority favours taking the fight.

Your boy is Don Mogard. On the 23rd of September, 1948 you put him in a six-rounder with serious prospect Roland LaStarza and get a serious shellacking, losing the decision. So, after a sure-win over Jimmy Walls (his 4th) you put him in with Roland LaStarza again and really take a thumping, getting dropped twice in the first round before losing a lop-sided 8 round decision.

I figure, back to the drawing board and pick an opponent who looks good on paper but likely is beatable by your boy Mogard. But nope, you wait just 10 days and put him in with 20-3-1 Joe Weiden who out-weighs Don by 20 pounds in his first 10-round fight, and surprise, you lose the nod again and get knocked down twice in the 4th.

I'm thinking Mogard's confidence is pretty shaky, and you know 50% of a fighter is physical and the other 98% is mental. Put him in with 6'4" Carmine Vingo who is 9-1-0 on a card at Madison Square Garden, and he drops a six to the popular kid from the Bronx.

By this point your boy probably thinks he can't whip his granddad. He loses decisions to four guys, all of whom have recently been winning, so you throw him in with Rocky Marciano! Amazingly, he is the first guy to fight Marciano and hear the final bell, but he pays for the priviledge...

Mogard continues fighting, but of his last ten fights, he only wins 2 and draws once. He retires, never having been stopped, even by Marciano himself, but who knows how things might have worked out if he had had better management?

Cap

professordp · 06-24-2012, 06:21 PM

Er...what exactly was the purpose of this entire exercise?

I didn't realize you wanted us to play C. Auguste Dupin.

kenyan_cheena · 06-24-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap

Oke. The majority favours taking the fight.

Your boy is Don Mogard. On the 23rd of September, 1948 you put him in a six-rounder with serious prospect Roland LaStarza and get a serious shellacking, losing the decision. So, after a sure-win over Jimmy Walls (his 4th) you put him in with Roland LaStarza again and really take a thumping, getting dropped twice in the first round before losing a lop-sided 8 round decision.

I figure, back to the drawing board and pick an opponent who looks good on paper but likely is beatable by your boy Mogard. But nope, you wait just 10 days and put him in with 20-3-1 Joe Weiden who out-weighs Don by 20 pounds in his first 10-round fight, and surprise, you lose the nod again and get knocked down twice in the 4th.

I'm thinking Mogard's confidence is pretty shaky, and you know 50% of a fighter is physical and the other 98% is mental. Put him in with 6'4" Carmine Vingo who is 9-1-0 on a card at Madison Square Garden, and he drops a six to the popular kid from the Bronx.

By this point your boy probably thinks he can't whip his granddad. He loses decisions to four guys, all of whom have recently been winning, so you throw him in with Rocky Marciano! Amazingly, he is the first guy to fight Marciano and hear the final bell, but he pays for the priviledge...

Mogard continues fighting, but of his last ten fights, he only wins 2 and draws once. He retires, never having been stopped, even by Marciano himself, but who knows how things might have worked out if he had had better management?

Cap

I see what you did!

Cap · 06-28-2012, 11:30 AM

I was really curious about the mindset of Mogard's manager, and I also wondered what the majority of boxing fans would elect to do regarding the fight with LaStarza. My own opinion was that Mogard was poorly handled and used as an opponent for other fighters. There was a vast field of boxers separating Jimmy Walls and Roland LaStarza and a manager who was looking out for Mogard would have picked someone who Don could learn from, not just get a little exercise with or take a one-sided pasting from. The belief at the time was that heavyweights matured later than other fighters and needed to be guided along, fighting a better calibre of boxer in each consecutive match.

From a distance in time, it's impossible to say how good Mogard really was. He had some amateur experience and boxed in the RCAF. He had a tough beard for sure and could swat some. There's no way of knowing what his basic skill set was when he stepped through the ropes with LaStarza. Could he have handled Roland with more wins under his belt against better guys than he was previously battling? Would a top-flight trainer like Ray Arcel or Charlie Goldman have crafted a better boxer out of Don Mogard over time?

Cap

bdolan33 · 06-29-2012, 04:16 AM

What a fun scenario this would be to play out in TCB if only there was a promoter/career mode.

bob_bask · 07-13-2012, 03:22 PM

Like the idea of this thread, could see a big response if somebody could survive setting a universe up specifically for this purpose and manage to keep it running while posting such dilemmas in "Inside the Ropes" forum.

On a personal note, I have had the beginnings of a Choose Your Own Adventure type universe - "The Heavyweight Challenge" - intended for eventual download.

Sadly, it has been sat almost idle for at least the last 18 months.

One day though...

View Poll Results: Take the fight at Yankee Stadium or not?
Take the chance and the money and run.	13	54.17%
Turn it down and look around for a better risk.	11	45.83%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

06-22-2012, 10:41 AM	#1
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,776 Blog Entries: 4	You Be the Manager OK. Here's the setup. You've got a heavyweight, 22 years old, with a limited amateur background. His record stands at 16(5)-1-1 in mostly 4-6 rounders in Jersey and Brooklyn against guys Joe Public never heard of, who had even less experience than your boy. Only 3 of these pugs had winning records and three of your 16 wins are against the same poor jamoke. You get an offer to fight a six-rounder in Yankee Stadium, but the other guy is a really slick young boxer unbeaten in more than 20 fights over a one year period. He's beaten a few good boys like Steve King and Jimmy Evans, and veterans like Tony Gangemi and Oscar Goode. The odds are not in your favour. Do you turn it down and go after a good fighter who your boy can probably beat and try to build him up gradually, or do you take the offer? Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

06-22-2012, 02:40 PM	#3
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,776 Blog Entries: 4	But a whipping in front of a big crowd at Yankee Stadium could ruin your prospects... Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

06-22-2012, 07:21 PM	#5
shane6969 All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Bendigo, Australia Posts: 1,013	Knock it back mate, play it safe. __________________ Hatred is an acid that corrodes the soul

06-23-2012, 10:08 AM	#7
professordp Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,006	A little more information needed. Your boxer's style? How does he match up against guys who are "slick"? Is this nationally televised/pay-per-view? Overall, I'd be inclined to take the offer. After sixteen fights against "red meat", it's time to step up and see what this guy really has in him. He's twenty-two and he's not going to go any further if he continues to fight stiffs in smoke-filled venues. So what if he takes a pounding and loses! You now know where he's weak and where he's strong. So you work with him in these areas to make him a better fighter. Many times failure is the ultimate teacher. He's only twenty-two, and if he has the "right stuff" he'll bounce back. If he can't, he doesn't belong in the fight game. Of course, you'd want to think positive. This is the kid's big break, and if he wins, he takes a nice big step forward. Nothing ventured...nothing gained! __________________ A Partial Eclipse of the Sonny Laszlo Papp: The Lost Years The Spice O' Life Teofilo Stevenson Pro Simulation Last edited by professordp; 06-23-2012 at 10:10 AM.

06-23-2012, 07:46 PM	#8
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,776 Blog Entries: 4	One further bit of information, the slick boxer was none other than Roland LaStarza. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

06-23-2012, 11:51 PM	#9
pilight All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Action is Posts: 1,779	Much depends on how good you think your fighter is. If you do not think he is as good as his record, you take the fight for what is likely to be his biggest payday ever. If you think he has championship potential, then you only take the fight if you think he can win it.

06-24-2012, 01:33 PM	#11
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,776 Blog Entries: 4	Oke. The majority favours taking the fight. Your boy is Don Mogard. On the 23rd of September, 1948 you put him in a six-rounder with serious prospect Roland LaStarza and get a serious shellacking, losing the decision. So, after a sure-win over Jimmy Walls (his 4th) you put him in with Roland LaStarza again and really take a thumping, getting dropped twice in the first round before losing a lop-sided 8 round decision. I figure, back to the drawing board and pick an opponent who looks good on paper but likely is beatable by your boy Mogard. But nope, you wait just 10 days and put him in with 20-3-1 Joe Weiden who out-weighs Don by 20 pounds in his first 10-round fight, and surprise, you lose the nod again and get knocked down twice in the 4th. I'm thinking Mogard's confidence is pretty shaky, and you know 50% of a fighter is physical and the other 98% is mental. Put him in with 6'4" Carmine Vingo who is 9-1-0 on a card at Madison Square Garden, and he drops a six to the popular kid from the Bronx. By this point your boy probably thinks he can't whip his granddad. He loses decisions to four guys, all of whom have recently been winning, so you throw him in with Rocky Marciano! Amazingly, he is the first guy to fight Marciano and hear the final bell, but he pays for the priviledge... Mogard continues fighting, but of his last ten fights, he only wins 2 and draws once. He retires, never having been stopped, even by Marciano himself, but who knows how things might have worked out if he had had better management? Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.." Last edited by Cap; 06-24-2012 at 01:36 PM.

06-24-2012, 06:21 PM	#12
professordp Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,006	Er...what exactly was the purpose of this entire exercise? I didn't realize you wanted us to play C. Auguste Dupin. __________________ A Partial Eclipse of the Sonny Laszlo Papp: The Lost Years The Spice O' Life Teofilo Stevenson Pro Simulation

06-28-2012, 11:30 AM	#14
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,776 Blog Entries: 4	I was really curious about the mindset of Mogard's manager, and I also wondered what the majority of boxing fans would elect to do regarding the fight with LaStarza. My own opinion was that Mogard was poorly handled and used as an opponent for other fighters. There was a vast field of boxers separating Jimmy Walls and Roland LaStarza and a manager who was looking out for Mogard would have picked someone who Don could learn from, not just get a little exercise with or take a one-sided pasting from. The belief at the time was that heavyweights matured later than other fighters and needed to be guided along, fighting a better calibre of boxer in each consecutive match. From a distance in time, it's impossible to say how good Mogard really was. He had some amateur experience and boxed in the RCAF. He had a tough beard for sure and could swat some. There's no way of knowing what his basic skill set was when he stepped through the ropes with LaStarza. Could he have handled Roland with more wins under his belt against better guys than he was previously battling? Would a top-flight trainer like Ray Arcel or Charlie Goldman have crafted a better boxer out of Don Mogard over time? Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.." Last edited by Cap; 06-29-2012 at 08:46 AM.

06-29-2012, 04:16 AM	#15
bdolan33 Bat Boy Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 11	What a fun scenario this would be to play out in TCB if only there was a promoter/career mode.

07-13-2012, 03:22 PM	#16
bob_bask Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,361	Like the idea of this thread, could see a big response if somebody could survive setting a universe up specifically for this purpose and manage to keep it running while posting such dilemmas in "Inside the Ropes" forum. On a personal note, I have had the beginnings of a Choose Your Own Adventure type universe - "The Heavyweight Challenge" - intended for eventual download. Sadly, it has been sat almost idle for at least the last 18 months. One day though...