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Old 11-06-2019, 08:23 AM   #41
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Still have never seen a player thrown out at home trying to stretch a triple into a home run.
Have never seen a player thrown out at home on a wild pitch, pass ball or steal or what ever you want to call it.
Have seen a lot of players thrown out at home who where runners on 1st or 2nd when batter had a hit.
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:31 PM   #42
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Still have never seen a player thrown out at home trying to stretch a triple into a home run.
Have never seen a player thrown out at home on a wild pitch, pass ball or steal or what ever you want to call it.
Have seen a lot of players thrown out at home who where runners on 1st or 2nd when batter had a hit.
Come on, Markus... this is something you should comment on.

Are we right that something is amiss and needs to be addressed?
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:16 PM   #43
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Baserunning is certainly the biggest bugaboo currently in the game, at least in how I play.
It's become basically a station to station game, runners already on base advance one base on a single, two bases on a double, etc.
You rarely have anyone score from first on a double or second from a single.
I've seen it even when a player appears to have a distinct advantage on the outfielder in terms of speed/baserunning to defensive ability/arm.
Even discounting the animation, it's frustrating when you 75 rated baserunner holds at third when the outfielder's arm is a 45 and there are two outs.
What's even more frustrating, is you're not given an option to send the runner and he holds on his own.
Even though I got burned on that the other day, had a 75 baserunner on third. Fly ball almost to the warning track in the left-field corner.
The left fielder, Harrison Bader, whose arm rating is 55, made the catch.
I sent the runner and was gunned down at the plate.
Again, don't trust the animation.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rink23 View Post
Baserunning is certainly the biggest bugaboo currently in the game, at least in how I play.
It's become basically a station to station game, runners already on base advance one base on a single, two bases on a double, etc.
You rarely have anyone score from first on a double or second from a single.
I've seen it even when a player appears to have a distinct advantage on the outfielder in terms of speed/baserunning to defensive ability/arm.
Even discounting the animation, it's frustrating when you 75 rated baserunner holds at third when the outfielder's arm is a 45 and there are two outs.
What's even more frustrating, is you're not given an option to send the runner and he holds on his own.
Even though I got burned on that the other day, had a 75 baserunner on third. Fly ball almost to the warning track in the left-field corner.
The left fielder, Harrison Bader, whose arm rating is 55, made the catch.
I sent the runner and was gunned down at the plate.
Again, don't trust the animation.
I wonder if there are strategy settings or other settings at work here in what you are seeing. Because some of the things you describe here- runners scoring from second on singles and scoring from first on doubles, I see all the time in my fictional league. (In fact, just last night my Denver Brewers won game 1 of the world series when a runner on second scored on a ground ball single up the middle, with NO outs. That's just one play, but I see that sort of thing all the time.)
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:42 PM   #45
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I wonder that as well.

I don't think I've touched the strategy levels at all.

The franchise in question just celebrated it's one year anniversary yesterday. (The was the change from OOTP19 to XX). We are in August of the 2024 season.

But I am uncertain what to change and fearful any slight change would tilt the game in the other direction.
BTW, these issues don't seem to be happening just to my team. (I play out all nine innings of every game),
It is happening to the opposition as well.

Last edited by rink23; 11-06-2019 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:29 PM   #46
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Agree with Rink about outfielders' arms. Some of them make Clemente look like a piker. As a digression I just had a baserunner called out because he was hit by a line drive from the batter. I can't believe they didn't have to call for paramedics as the ball was hit so hard I could barely see it.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:35 PM   #47
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Question: If you're playing out all nine innings of your game, are the strategy settings (coming from the bench coach) negated?
Or do they still come into play in terms of the CPU advancing or having base runner hold/and baser runners attempting to steal and returning to the base?
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:48 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by BirdWatcher View Post
I wonder if there are strategy settings or other settings at work here in what you are seeing. Because some of the things you describe here- runners scoring from second on singles and scoring from first on doubles, I see all the time in my fictional league. (In fact, just last night my Denver Brewers won game 1 of the world series when a runner on second scored on a ground ball single up the middle, with NO outs. That's just one play, but I see that sort of thing all the time.)
I have my baserunning strategies set to be more aggressive than average and I see the same issue with "station to station" style baserunning when playing a modern sim. The frequency that runners score from 2nd on singles and first on doubles seems to be off, especially with 2 outs. Due to this, it seems like you see a higher frequency of plate appearances with the bases loaded, again especially with two outs.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:56 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rink23 View Post
Baserunning is certainly the biggest bugaboo currently in the game, at least in how I play.
It's become basically a station to station game, runners already on base advance one base on a single, two bases on a double, etc.
You rarely have anyone score from first on a double or second from a single.
I've seen it even when a player appears to have a distinct advantage on the outfielder in terms of speed/baserunning to defensive ability/arm.
Even discounting the animation, it's frustrating when you 75 rated baserunner holds at third when the outfielder's arm is a 45 and there are two outs.
What's even more frustrating, is you're not given an option to send the runner and he holds on his own.
Even though I got burned on that the other day, had a 75 baserunner on third. Fly ball almost to the warning track in the left-field corner.
The left fielder, Harrison Bader, whose arm rating is 55, made the catch.
I sent the runner and was gunned down at the plate.
Again, don't trust the animation.
You are right... often I see a runner hold at third with less than two outs and the batter flies out deep.

And the animation has all kinds of flaws... the center fielder is playing extremely deep, back up against the fence, the ball hits in front of him, he fields it on one hop and the batter gets a double... you don't see this in real life... in general the center fielder wouldn't play that deep... the ball would have to be in the gaps or over his head for a double.

Last edited by Eugene Church; 11-07-2019 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:50 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
I have my baserunning strategies set to be more aggressive than average and I see the same issue with "station to station" style baserunning when playing a modern sim. The frequency that runners score from 2nd on singles and first on doubles seems to be off, especially with 2 outs. Due to this, it seems like you see a higher frequency of plate appearances with the bases loaded, again especially with two outs.
So this makes me wonder if this is more about the settings that are specific to league environments for different eras of play. My team strategy settings are, if anything, rather conservative in terms of base running as my current team isn't very gifted in that area, but the league settings are set to 1970's and 1980's (mostly) strategies and statistical settings (varies year to year, ranging from 1972-1991).
And don't get me wrong, I have done no deep dive statistical analysis of this. I'm not saying that the results in my league are on target statistically. Just that anecdotally, I'm not seeing station-to-station baseball in my league.
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Old 11-07-2019, 03:16 PM   #51
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This is how bad it appears to me from just observing over 100 games simmed in "one pitch" mode. The frequency of runners advancing to third from first on singles with two outs appears to be fairly similar to the frequency of runners scoring from 2nd base on singles with two outs. I constantly find myself questioning why a runner would go from first to third where the result ends up being a "close play" so often. When I watch MLB baseball, the frequency of close plays at third with two outs is rare. It usually takes you watching several games before you see such a play. In OOTP it seems to happen several times per game. But then when you expect runners to be attempting to score from first or second on doubles and singles, they are constantly being held.

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Old 11-07-2019, 03:31 PM   #52
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This is how bad it appears to me from just observing over 100 games simmed in "one pitch" mode. The frequency of runners advancing to third from first on singles with two outs appears to be fairly similar to the frequency of runners scoring from 2nd base on singles with two outs. I constantly find myself questioning why a runner would go from first to third where the result ends up being a "close play" so often. When I watch MLB baseball, the frequency of close plays at third with two outs is rare. It usually takes you watching several games before you see such a play. In OOTP it seems to happen several times per game. But then when you expect runners to be attempting to score from first or second on doubles and singles, they are constantly being held.
People should collect data.

Then it can be compared to real life data. Then we'll know if there's a problem
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:04 PM   #53
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If you go into the config file "engine.cfg" (one of the file settings opens the directory) you can tweak, among many other things, the chances of attempting tag-ups or extra bases and the chances of success, and get it just how it feels right to you.

Or, a more simple thing to tweak per league is the baserunning 20-80 which in modern day is 40 by default, but start earlier and it's higher... just increasing that will mean more extra bases (though I don't know if that's attempts, success, or both).
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:27 PM   #54
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People should collect data.

Then it can be compared to real life data. Then we'll know if there's a problem
that was done in this thread and it's a blatantly huge problem. the PBP engine needs a total overhaul but I don't think the nuts and bolts of the game is high on the priority list anymore with the Pay-To-Play side getting all the attention
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:18 PM   #55
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Topic seems to be expanding to all types of base running but for a moment let's go back to the original "out trying to stretch a single to a double" and maybe include stretching to third or home. Shouldn't we be looking at OF assists per base? Sure these aren't limited to "stretching" but also include attempts to advance on a flyball but still they are real life outs per base by OF position.

OF assists, 2019 stats I found at B-R... https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...fielding.shtml

Code:
       RF    CF    LF       Total       Per game
1B   28       8    11       47            .0096 
2B   112     78    96      286            .0588
3b    52     53    42      147            .0302
H     73     65    83      221            .0454
Total                      701            .1442
B-R defines these throws as "assists where the ball was thrown to 2b as the result of a ball in play" or of course which ever base is applicable

That would be 9.52 outs at 2b per 162 games from OF assist. Approx 1 every 17 games.

Not sure how that compares to my OOTP season but I can see where it would be easy to have a long stretch of games not seeing one. You could go 34 and then get 2 in the next 5 and not see another for a month of games.

Anyway some real life 2019 numbers to consider
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:39 PM   #56
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that was done in this thread and it's a blatantly huge problem. the PBP engine needs a total overhaul but I don't think the nuts and bolts of the game is high on the priority list anymore with the Pay-To-Play side getting all the attention
So you think they don't want or care about having realistic stats in their pay to play game?

You think PT has a different\better base running model than OOTP? Why would they try to invent the wheel twice when it fits on both cars?
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:47 PM   #57
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So you think they don't want or care about having realistic stats in their pay to play game?

You think PT has a different\better base running model than OOTP? Why would they try to invent the wheel twice when it fits on both cars?
no I don't think people who play PT care about the specifics of the PBP model as long as it's roughly right. the entire PBP model needs a revamp as it's clearly results-y. like they are not modelling a play, they are just rolling a dice and then creating trying to context around the result
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BirdWatcher View Post
I wonder if there are strategy settings or other settings at work here in what you are seeing. Because some of the things you describe here- runners scoring from second on singles and scoring from first on doubles, I see all the time in my fictional league. (In fact, just last night my Denver Brewers won game 1 of the world series when a runner on second scored on a ground ball single up the middle, with NO outs. That's just one play, but I see that sort of thing all the time.)
I also see runners scoring on a single from second base often... also scoring from first on a double pretty often, too... the game seems to be accurate on these situations.

Out at second, stretching a single is what I rarely see... but I have seen it.

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Old 11-07-2019, 08:24 PM   #59
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no I don't think people who play PT care about the specifics of the PBP model as long as it's roughly right. the entire PBP model needs a revamp as it's clearly results-y. like they are not modelling a play, they are just rolling a dice and then creating trying to context around the result
Yes, it's always been that way, it's not a physics based game. The ball is never going deep in the hole to SS, there is no ball. The game rolls dice and gets a result based on real life percentages (if the ball is hit and then where balls are hit and how those balls play out, with a ton of variables) and then builds a pbp and now video to represent what happened. FM plays the same way, IE it simulates a game and then makes a video and pbp to fit after. It's not a secret.

You can argue the pbp can be improved to make a better picture and I'll agree. Doesn't matter if it's done for PT or OOTP both will benefit. If PT is the cash machine, finances a bigger team of coders than OOTP has, that's just fine by me again both games benefit. And it will take a huge effort to change the pbp, it's a lot of text and variables that left to the old OOTP only model may not get done in the next 10 years.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:26 PM   #60
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Yes, it's always been that way, it's not a physics based game. The ball is never going deep in the hole to SS, there is no ball. The game rolls dice and gets a result based on real life percentages (if the ball is hit and then where balls are hit and how those balls play out, with a ton of variables) and then builds a pbp and now video to represent what happened
I like to think the ball can go deep in the hole, and that in a case like that a SS with better range will reach it and one with lesser range will fail to. One with the range but a bad arm for a SS might get to it but fail to throw the runner out.

It's possible that if the SS has great range/arm that just subtracts from the chance that a ball hit on the ground (which with pitcher GB/FB ratios and the like the game definitely does decide whether it's hit on the ground or not) will be a hit, and that where the out is recorded, beyond which fielder gets the assist for fielding stats-- is fluff. But I hope not, and if so I hope they fix it. I hope that the plays where fielding is the key are the same ones hit to the harder spots to make plays, so when the PbP/graphics show the SS run down a ball in the hole it really means it was the SS's range that led to it being an out and not a single through the infield.
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