Lets talk about fatigue in tournaments

Markus Heinsohn · 11-19-2019, 05:09 AM

Update: OK folks, thanks for your feedback! We will update the servers now, and the pitcher fatigue is back to the regular PT league default. Also, we have significantly reduced the number of pitches a pure reliever (stamina less than 25 / 100) can throw when used as a SP.

Hey guys,

As you know, there are no off-days in tournaments. We did this because we wanted the bench to matter, too. So we set position player fatigue to very high and eliminated off-days. The problem now was that bullpens got exhausted pretty quickly, especially for teams which had to go the distance in a series. To combat this, we increased the global pitcher stamina setting by one step, which now makes bullpen management a bit easier. The downside is, that also applies to the starting pitchers, who now have about 10-15 pitches more stamina than in regular PT leagues. This is not ideal. So, what to do? We want to keep off-days eliminated.

So, two possible scenarios:
1) We leave it as is.
2) We set the pitcher stamina setting back to regular PT league level, but that will mean people will have to manage their rostrer differently and carry one or two extra relievers.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Markus

bailey · 11-19-2019, 08:20 AM

For me the big problem has been position player fatigue, not pitcher fatigue. The AI keeps playing guys until 5 or 6 guys are all tired at once, and micro-ing is not always possible. I have not experienced any exceptional bullpen fatigue. My starters pitch many complete games even though I have quickest hook possible set. Contrast with the standard game where my starters had 1 complete game last week in the regular game with quick hook set 3 clicks left of center. Maybe that's because my pitchers all top ten starters and my bullpen are all starters (who may recover stamina more quickly, or have more to use up). It seems to me if you put pitcher stamina back to normal you just transfer the problem to position player fatigue. If it's possible, I think a day off between series should be mandatory even if all teams are ready to play would be a nice compromise. You don't get a day off if you sweep if all your opponents sweep, too. (Meanwhile, work on separating starting pitcher stamina from bullpen pitching stamina!

) Another possibility is to increase roster size to 26, which is happening in real life in 2020 anyway So for our tournaments maybe 27 is a good number. Another possibility is to allow for switching out players between series as is possible in regular game postseason.

dkgo · 11-19-2019, 08:54 AM

I am strongly in favor of position fatigue how it is. Makes you use your depth some and rewards teams who win via sweep in the early rounds.

Pitcher fatigue can go either way for me but I don't really see a pressing need to change it back. It's different but not necessarily worse.

Playing some tired position players isn't a big deal, but if you end up with an all-tired bullpen it is a death spiral.

CrazyWR · 11-19-2019, 09:19 AM

If you want stamina to matter, set the pitcher stamina back to normal, tough choices will have to be made. Otherwise, every team will have 9 or 10 pitchers and 15 or 16 hitters eventually. Seems a bit unrealistic

Orcin · 11-19-2019, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

If you want stamina to matter, set the pitcher stamina back to normal, tough choices will have to be made. Otherwise, every team will have 9 or 10 pitchers and 15 or 16 hitters eventually. Seems a bit unrealistic

I agree with this.

Where's the poll?

CrazyWR · 11-19-2019, 10:04 AM

In the meantime, Mariano Rivera is the best SP in the game for tourneys

Dogberry99 · 11-19-2019, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

In the meantime, Mariano Rivera is the best SP in the game for tourneys

I faced Live Robert Stock as a SP in a tournament, and his 18 stamina allowed him to throw 85 pitches in 5 innings before he was pulled.

I don't know what the right answer should be, but it should be one where stamina ratings increase choice, not decrease it because everyone can throw 85 pitches.

mpatt75 · 11-19-2019, 03:53 PM

Leave it as it is.

Then again, I rarely advance past the first round, and usually only if it is a best of 1 series.

getalife1798 · 11-19-2019, 04:21 PM

Nerf Stamina all together.

Make teams that have 22-23 man rosters in capped tournaments be forced to pitch some 40 overall guys.

One Great Matrix · 11-19-2019, 04:35 PM

I'm not sure. Interesting you ask us. It doesn't seem a big problem right now…neither some unfair advantage cheating the cap system OR fatigue OR the bench & pen being irrelevant or too relevant.

I don't think you should force the bench to matter any more than it does… (pinch hitter, runner, alternate lineup guy). These are small things but you can only fit 8 or 9 (DH) position players plus one pitcher in the game at a time and it can often help to use another situationally. If you put them back to regular levels, then they have 10 or 15 pitches LESS stamina, you said? Well that would be good for making the pen matter and hold up. I lost one of my first tournament because I skimped on my pen, so they only pitch 1-3 innings many times, but they can definitely lose you a game if you don't carry good pitchers…

And I think you did a good job with the cap numbers overall. Where they are it makes it difficult to sort of put out 5 100 starters and 8 near 100 position players & skimp everywhere else. But as I already mentioned that could very easily lose you a number of games anyway.

I imagine there are a number of things you could do if you felt up to changing things…limit number of perfects or perfect starters…have a cap plus limits or minimums on certain levels of card values off the top of my head.

pappyzan · 11-19-2019, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

In the meantime, Mariano Rivera is the best SP in the game for tourneys

Yes, relievers & closers being able to pitch 90+ pitches is the new norm. I like the way fatigue is working on everyday position players, but it's quite a bit too far the other way with pitchers now. Starters going 150+ pitches, relievers going 90+ pitches, and starters being 100% after 2 days rest aren't what I think Markus had in mind.

dkgo · 11-19-2019, 05:38 PM

I have never seen a starter at 100% on less than regular rest after throwing a normal pitch count.

I think it's a notch too far for SP given you can get 130+ pitches out of anyone with 90-100 stamina, is there a way to move starters down but not relievers? I do think you want to avoid having a completely bombed staff after an extra inning game with nothing you can do about it while also encouraging people to use actual relievers instead of needing to force starters into all the relief roles for stamina reasons.

HipandKneeDoc · 11-19-2019, 07:53 PM

I would leave the stamina as is for position players and reduce it back to "normal" for pitchers. Harder choices....

GlassGuyBob · 11-19-2019, 08:19 PM

I have no problem with position player fatigue. The problem is that the AI doesnt want to play my rested backups. I think this may be because of "Game 7 mode" being globally applied to tournament games and it makes it difficult to manage a team.

I would like pitcher fatigue to go back to normal. The pitcher stamina issue has caused several players to use relievers as their starters because they can now comfortably throw as many pitches as a normal starter.

Colin Poche becomes a Bronze ace because his 30 stamina lets him throw 100 pitches easily.

stl jason · 11-19-2019, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassGuyBob

I have no problem with position player fatigue. The problem is that the AI doesnt want to play my rested backups. I think this may be because of "Game 7 mode" being globally applied to tournament games and it makes it difficult to manage a team.

I would like pitcher fatigue to go back to normal. The pitcher stamina issue has caused several players to use relievers as their starters because they can now comfortably throw as many pitches as a normal starter.

Colin Poche becomes a Bronze ace because his 30 stamina lets him throw 100 pitches easily.

yeah, the pitching side definitely needs some adjustments.... running a bronze team right now with nothing but relievers... just had a game where Jimmie Sherfy (stamina=16) went 7 innings with 92 pitches, only giving up 6 hits and 3 runs.

The_Savage_1 · 11-19-2019, 09:57 PM

I like having benches matter otherwise cap tourneys can just be loaded with all the elite cards with junk on the bench. I don't like relievers being able to effectively start. So I'd say keep position players as is and reverse the boost to pitchers.

dkgo · 11-19-2019, 10:27 PM

I did not know it was that extreme. Dont really feel like updating my rosters though since it will probably change back the next day lol. AJ Puk silver ace for life.

Alaric410 · 11-19-2019, 10:44 PM

Definitely need to undo the current boost to pitcher stamina. Teams are dominating 1625-cap tourneys with four 100-rated SPs and their bullpen doesn't matter.

I'm unclear as to why high position-player fatigue settings affected pitchers in the first place? Or was it just the seven-days-a-week schedule that was killing bullpens? Regardless, I'd rather work around that than have relievers be effective starters or bullpens become completely redundant.

StatMan22 · 11-19-2019, 10:44 PM

Yes as others have said-pitching stamina absolutely needs to be reset. Seeing some crazy pitch counts out of starters (and apparently relievers). It'd be great to force teams to use their full 25-man rosters and get creative with roster construction. Forcing us to make more decisions is always better.

joehart · 11-19-2019, 10:56 PM

+1 back to normal stamina.

Not a fan of starters in lower level tournaments pitch 8-9 innings every time with 120-145 pitches.
It changed the strategy too much towards get the right guy and sit back and relax.

I also don’t like to see relievers as Starters in the lower level tournaments.

In this regard, I am ok with going back to more reasonable stamina levels.

11-19-2019, 05:09 AM	#1
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 23,279 Thanks: 5,627 Thanked 40,279x in 6,265 posts	Lets talk about fatigue in tournaments Update: OK folks, thanks for your feedback! We will update the servers now, and the pitcher fatigue is back to the regular PT league default. Also, we have significantly reduced the number of pitches a pure reliever (stamina less than 25 / 100) can throw when used as a SP. Hey guys, As you know, there are no off-days in tournaments. We did this because we wanted the bench to matter, too. So we set position player fatigue to very high and eliminated off-days. The problem now was that bullpens got exhausted pretty quickly, especially for teams which had to go the distance in a series. To combat this, we increased the global pitcher stamina setting by one step, which now makes bullpen management a bit easier. The downside is, that also applies to the starting pitchers, who now have about 10-15 pitches more stamina than in regular PT leagues. This is not ideal. So, what to do? We want to keep off-days eliminated. So, two possible scenarios: 1) We leave it as is. 2) We set the pitcher stamina setting back to regular PT league level, but that will mean people will have to manage their rostrer differently and carry one or two extra relievers. Thoughts? Cheers, Markus __________________ BUY Out of the Park Baseball 20 now! Want a PT signature image? See here! Last edited by Markus Heinsohn; 11-20-2019 at 05:45 AM.

11-19-2019, 08:20 AM	#2
bailey All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,420 Thanks: 148 Thanked 672x in 371 posts	For me the big problem has been position player fatigue, not pitcher fatigue. The AI keeps playing guys until 5 or 6 guys are all tired at once, and micro-ing is not always possible. I have not experienced any exceptional bullpen fatigue. My starters pitch many complete games even though I have quickest hook possible set. Contrast with the standard game where my starters had 1 complete game last week in the regular game with quick hook set 3 clicks left of center. Maybe that's because my pitchers all top ten starters and my bullpen are all starters (who may recover stamina more quickly, or have more to use up). It seems to me if you put pitcher stamina back to normal you just transfer the problem to position player fatigue. If it's possible, I think a day off between series should be mandatory even if all teams are ready to play would be a nice compromise. You don't get a day off if you sweep if all your opponents sweep, too. (Meanwhile, work on separating starting pitcher stamina from bullpen pitching stamina!) Another possibility is to increase roster size to 26, which is happening in real life in 2020 anyway So for our tournaments maybe 27 is a good number. Another possibility is to allow for switching out players between series as is possible in regular game postseason. __________________

11-19-2019, 08:54 AM	#3
dkgo All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,238 Thanks: 41 Thanked 729x in 406 posts	I am strongly in favor of position fatigue how it is. Makes you use your depth some and rewards teams who win via sweep in the early rounds. Pitcher fatigue can go either way for me but I don't really see a pressing need to change it back. It's different but not necessarily worse. Playing some tired position players isn't a big deal, but if you end up with an all-tired bullpen it is a death spiral. Last edited by dkgo; 11-19-2019 at 08:56 AM.

11-19-2019, 09:19 AM	#4
CrazyWR All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 538 Thanks: 318 Thanked 255x in 181 posts	If you want stamina to matter, set the pitcher stamina back to normal, tough choices will have to be made. Otherwise, every team will have 9 or 10 pitchers and 15 or 16 hitters eventually. Seems a bit unrealistic __________________

11-19-2019, 10:04 AM	#6
CrazyWR All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 538 Thanks: 318 Thanked 255x in 181 posts	In the meantime, Mariano Rivera is the best SP in the game for tourneys __________________

11-19-2019, 03:53 PM	#8
mpatt75 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 50 Thanks: 79 Thanked 13x in 8 posts	Leave it as it is. Then again, I rarely advance past the first round, and usually only if it is a best of 1 series.

11-19-2019, 04:21 PM	#9
getalife1798 Bat Boy Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 17 Thanks: 7 Thanked 8x in 7 posts	Nerf Stamina all together. Make teams that have 22-23 man rosters in capped tournaments be forced to pitch some 40 overall guys. __________________

11-19-2019, 04:35 PM	#10
One Great Matrix All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 945 Thanks: 351 Thanked 186x in 144 posts	Real quick I'm not sure. Interesting you ask us. It doesn't seem a big problem right now…neither some unfair advantage cheating the cap system OR fatigue OR the bench & pen being irrelevant or too relevant. I don't think you should force the bench to matter any more than it does… (pinch hitter, runner, alternate lineup guy). These are small things but you can only fit 8 or 9 (DH) position players plus one pitcher in the game at a time and it can often help to use another situationally. If you put them back to regular levels, then they have 10 or 15 pitches LESS stamina, you said? Well that would be good for making the pen matter and hold up. I lost one of my first tournament because I skimped on my pen, so they only pitch 1-3 innings many times, but they can definitely lose you a game if you don't carry good pitchers… And I think you did a good job with the cap numbers overall. Where they are it makes it difficult to sort of put out 5 100 starters and 8 near 100 position players & skimp everywhere else. But as I already mentioned that could very easily lose you a number of games anyway. I imagine there are a number of things you could do if you felt up to changing things…limit number of perfects or perfect starters…have a cap plus limits or minimums on certain levels of card values off the top of my head. __________________

11-19-2019, 05:38 PM	#12
dkgo All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,238 Thanks: 41 Thanked 729x in 406 posts	I have never seen a starter at 100% on less than regular rest after throwing a normal pitch count. I think it's a notch too far for SP given you can get 130+ pitches out of anyone with 90-100 stamina, is there a way to move starters down but not relievers? I do think you want to avoid having a completely bombed staff after an extra inning game with nothing you can do about it while also encouraging people to use actual relievers instead of needing to force starters into all the relief roles for stamina reasons. Last edited by dkgo; 11-19-2019 at 05:40 PM.

11-19-2019, 07:53 PM	#13
HipandKneeDoc Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 24 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2x in 1 post	I would leave the stamina as is for position players and reduce it back to "normal" for pitchers. Harder choices.... __________________

11-19-2019, 08:19 PM	#14
GlassGuyBob Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 121 Thanks: 83 Thanked 95x in 53 posts	I have no problem with position player fatigue. The problem is that the AI doesnt want to play my rested backups. I think this may be because of "Game 7 mode" being globally applied to tournament games and it makes it difficult to manage a team. I would like pitcher fatigue to go back to normal. The pitcher stamina issue has caused several players to use relievers as their starters because they can now comfortably throw as many pitches as a normal starter. Colin Poche becomes a Bronze ace because his 30 stamina lets him throw 100 pitches easily. __________________

11-19-2019, 09:57 PM	#16
The_Savage_1 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Australia Posts: 125 Thanks: 46 Thanked 72x in 34 posts	I like having benches matter otherwise cap tourneys can just be loaded with all the elite cards with junk on the bench. I don't like relievers being able to effectively start. So I'd say keep position players as is and reverse the boost to pitchers.

11-19-2019, 10:27 PM	#17
dkgo All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,238 Thanks: 41 Thanked 729x in 406 posts	I did not know it was that extreme. Dont really feel like updating my rosters though since it will probably change back the next day lol. AJ Puk silver ace for life.

11-19-2019, 10:44 PM	#18
Alaric410 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Definitely need to undo the current boost to pitcher stamina. Teams are dominating 1625-cap tourneys with four 100-rated SPs and their bullpen doesn't matter. I'm unclear as to why high position-player fatigue settings affected pitchers in the first place? Or was it just the seven-days-a-week schedule that was killing bullpens? Regardless, I'd rather work around that than have relievers be effective starters or bullpens become completely redundant. __________________

11-19-2019, 10:44 PM	#19
StatMan22 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Glen Ellyn, IL Posts: 65 Thanks: 33 Thanked 14x in 10 posts	Yes as others have said-pitching stamina absolutely needs to be reset. Seeing some crazy pitch counts out of starters (and apparently relievers). It'd be great to force teams to use their full 25-man rosters and get creative with roster construction. Forcing us to make more decisions is always better. __________________

11-19-2019, 10:56 PM	#20
joehart All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 1,084 Thanks: 707 Thanked 1,105x in 647 posts	+1 back to normal stamina. Not a fan of starters in lower level tournaments pitch 8-9 innings every time with 120-145 pitches. It changed the strategy too much towards get the right guy and sit back and relax. I also don’t like to see relievers as Starters in the lower level tournaments. In this regard, I am ok with going back to more reasonable stamina levels. __________________