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05-28-2013, 09:44 AM
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#21 | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 538
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Glad to see you're in the spirit, Painmantle. Looks like you stayed up late last night to do that research, too.
I just went back to the minor league manager sim that I abandoned and ran my existing game through July 1st, which is just 10 days into the regular season. These are not all the listed transactions by any means - just the examples I saw of the same players leaving/returning to my team during the first week after the regular season started: Quote:
In my short period of simming, it doesn't look like any position is uncovered and I have enough starting pitching. I don't know if that remains true throughout long periods of play, or what would happen if I had, say, 4-5 pitchers out with injuries. That was a problem before, but I can't say if it still is now. Regardless, it's ridiculous to say that the AI doesn't bounce players around a lot in their minors throughout the season, and that this wouldn't impact you if your game revolves around a single minor league team. Even if you don't play as a minor league manager, you can just look at the lower minor league stats of some players (at least in prior versions, haven't played 14 enough yet), and know that this is happening. I could run more sims, but I'm pretty sure that even my small sample size should highlight my point. |
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05-28-2013, 10:09 AM
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#22 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Belchertown, MA, USA
Posts: 4,443
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I'll do a test game tonight and check what happens in the Royals and Mets organizations, since there are a few unsolved questions.
1. Does this happen between the majors and AAA, as in the Curtis Borkholder thread? 2. What happens if there are multiple rookie league teams in the same organization? I chose the Mets and Royals because of their respective minor league structures. Kansas City has three rookie-ball teams (Idaho Falls, Burlington, and Surprise) while New York has short-A Brooklyn and two rookie-ball teams (Port St. Lucie and Kingsport) |
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05-28-2013, 10:18 AM
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#23 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Greenfield ,IN
Posts: 3,053
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Well, I can only say this. Do I see the transactions that you're referring to as far as player movement , Yes. But it is my feeling that this is the rookie League and movement is the norm rather than the exception. As of right now I have no real data that proves or disproves that this is abnormal movement. Would it be annoying for a rookie league coach? Hell yes but the Rookie Leagues are what they are and until I see some firm evidence telling me that this type of movement doesn't happen I have to accept it as normal and play with the players they give me.
One thing that is obvious to me is that when running a team in this mode and being at the bottom of the food chain you better be a hands on Manager who likes to play out his games and micro-manage his roster or your doomed to get fired. And actually while I've never played this way before I am strongly considering it now, since I really enjoy micro-managing my teams!  So if nothing else I have learned something from this thread and for that I am grateful. Now I'm going to run off and play some ootp14, maybe I'll find the time today to delve into the transactions of real Baseball clubs to see how normal this type of movement is. Code:
Sunday, July 28th, 2013 Sent SP Jhonathan Torres to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent LF Keith Lamb to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent CF Bradley Marquez to Rookie League Kingsport. Received SS Ahmed Rosario from Rookie League Kingsport. Received 1B Terry Lightheart from Rookie League Kingsport. Friday, July 26th, 2013 Received SP Jhonathan Torres from Rookie League Kingsport. Activated SS James Roberts from the disabled list. Thursday, July 25th, 2013 Received CF Bradley Marquez from Rookie League Kingsport. Wednesday, July 24th, 2013 Placed SP Ryan Burnett on the 7-day disabled list, retroactive to 07/21/2013. Tuesday, July 23rd, 2013 Received SP Aaron Blair from Rookie League Kingsport. Received LF Keith Lamb from Rookie League Kingsport. Monday, July 22nd, 2013 Placed SP Billy Roth on the 7-day disabled list, retroactive to 07/20/2013. Saturday, July 20th, 2013 Sent 1B Terry Lightheart to Rookie League Kingsport. Thursday, July 18th, 2013 Received MR Anthony Tzamtzis from Rookie League Kingsport. Wednesday, July 17th, 2013 Sent MR Anthony Tzamtzis to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent C Cal Flacco to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent CF Keith Lamb to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent CF Bradley Marquez to Rookie League Kingsport. Received SP James Farris from Rookie League Kingsport. Sunday, July 14th, 2013 Sent SP James Farris to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent SS Ahmed Rosario to Rookie League Kingsport. Received SP John Simms from Rookie League Kingsport. Placed SS James Roberts on the 7-day disabled list. Friday, July 12th, 2013 Sent SP John Simms to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent 2B James Prince to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent SS Branden Kaupe to Rookie League Kingsport. Received CF Bradley Marquez from Rookie League Kingsport. Tuesday, July 9th, 2013 Released SS Miguel Patino. Friday, July 5th, 2013 Received SP John Simms from Rookie League Kingsport. Wednesday, July 3rd, 2013 Received MR Anthony Tzamtzis from Rookie League Kingsport. Tuesday, July 2nd, 2013 Received 2B James Prince from Rookie League Kingsport. Received SP Stephen Gonsalves from Rookie League Kingsport. Monday, July 1st, 2013 Sent MR Jhonathan Torres to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent SP John Simms to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent MR Anthony Tzamtzis to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent CF Bradley Marquez to Rookie League Kingsport. Sent LF Vicente Lupo to Rookie League Kingsport. Received SS Branden Kaupe from Rookie League Kingsport.
__________________
“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino |
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05-28-2013, 11:05 AM
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#24 | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 538
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Just took a quick look at milb.com and checked out the real Pioneer League transactions from 6/22-6/30/2012:
Pioneer League Transactions | Orem Owlz Stats Quote:
I don't see anyone getting released on these lists.... releases might not be mentioned here. Do you think that Rookie league teams have a lot of guys who the big club sends for evaluation, the rookie league manager gives a thumbs up or thumbs down within a few days, and in the event of a thumbs down, the guy is quietly let go and replaced? If so, that would be something impossible to sim in any game, since you'd need an enormous database. |
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05-28-2013, 11:09 AM
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#25 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Up There
Posts: 15,405
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Quote:
You can find cases of players being shuffled from extended spring training to a full season affiliate and vice versa. |
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05-28-2013, 01:29 PM
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#26 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Greenfield ,IN
Posts: 3,053
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Well what we need to remember here is this is the rookie league...there is no where to go to be sent down to...only up.
Another thing is there are 2 or 3 rookie teams for each franchise, the transactions were talking about here aren't call up's in general they are nothing more than sideways movement to another rookie league team. For all we know these could very well be (as far as ootp is concerned) nothing more than movement to keep the appropriate players at all positions or just a change of scenery for the player. Sometimes that's all they need to give them a kick in the pants and start producing. I just don't as of yet see it to be an issue, when you coach at the rookie league level you know what your getting into and it's a revolving door of players that you must manage, and you never know from day to day who you'll actually have to work with. The Big Guys make all those decisions for you. My best guess is to have the kind of roster stability you yearn for maybe playing an independent League team would be more to your liking! But i'm gonna play out a season with this format just to see what a pain in the ass it really is to run one of these rookie league teams! 
__________________
“As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino |
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05-28-2013, 02:22 PM
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#27 | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 538
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Quote:
After all this, I'm going to go run through a full season or two in the minors myself. I still think the roster moves need work, and I'm curious to see what BW comes up with in his tests. But talking about minor league managing has made me think about seeing what I can do, and how it will play out if I get more in-depth with the day to day stuff. Who knows... maybe it just needs a different play style than I'm used to. Maybe I'll uncover some trend between teams that make a lot of low level moves and teams that don't. Maybe I'll even come to like the whole thing. 
Last edited by One Post Wonder; 05-28-2013 at 02:26 PM. |
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05-28-2013, 02:41 PM
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#28 | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 538
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Quote:
The next time OOTP does its check, the original stronger team is now slightly weaker because Pitcher X is on the other side of the scale... so it moves him back... Even the Rookie to A promotions might work like that. Player A is barely over the border of being good enough to get promoted. So the game promotes him. He plays one game and goes 0 for 4. The algorithm part of the game factors that in and now, he's not quite good enough to be at the higher level, and he gets moved back down. Just a theory of course - I have no idea how the code works. |
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05-28-2013, 04:48 PM
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#29 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Up There
Posts: 15,405
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Quote:
So there is quite a bit of minor league organizational transaction data available, more than enough to provide a very good reference point for what OOTP ought to be doing. |
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05-28-2013, 06:37 PM
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#30 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hucknall, Notts, UK
Posts: 4,902
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06-02-2013, 11:10 AM
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#31 | ||
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 538
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Before I disappear, I thought I'd throw some data out there. I've run a couple of seasons now as a minor league manager and I've got some comparisons with the real thing.
It doesn't look like the MiLB transactions lists players who are leaving a team, with the exception of one deceased player and a couple of retirements and one or two releases. To keep this simple, I'll just compare the incoming players in both OOTP and MiLB, so when I say 'transactions', I'm talking about incoming players. I'll also put a magnifying glass on the Orem Owlz and St. Lucie Mets, both of whom I've become intimately familiar with. OK... Pioneer League (R) Quote:
Quote:
Of course, OOTP doesn't have things like extending spring training and rehab assignments, so Real Life should have more transactions than OOTP does. When I tried this in older versions, I had some rosters that were unworkable. 3 starting pitchers or 2 outfielders and things like that - I don't see that any more. I've always had workable rosters. The one thing that OOTP sometimes misses is CF... it sometimes sticks me with 3 OF, none of whom has any experience in center or the talent to learn it. So it's not as bad as I'd expected. Some work needs to be done with Rookie League, especially since Rookie Level is people's first experience with manager mode. And if OOTP added things like meetings with the players and media and things like that, this could really be a major part of the game. It could use some polish. |
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06-02-2013, 11:29 AM
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#32 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 6,407
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Quote:
__________________
PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam. Last edited by Honorable_Pawn; 06-02-2013 at 11:31 AM. |
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06-02-2013, 11:43 AM
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#33 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 6,407
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Quote:
It's not just you. In my first dynasty report I tried to work my way up as a manager starting at rookie ball. Unfortunately, IMHO, I felt like it was completely broken so I had to scrap the dynasty report. I don't need "hard-data" to know that the "fun-factor" is broken in minor-league managing. Speaking of hard data, where is the hard-data to support fan-loyalty, fan interest, scouts' abilities, average merchandising as a ratio to ticket sales, coach personalties, player personalties? Where is the "hard-data on work-ethic, intelligence, greed, loyalty. This "GAME" has implemented a ton of ideas that do not have "hard-data". They do not need hard-data to make the game fun. The only thing that has any "hard-data" around here are the statisitics which are subjective to the era they were prodcued in anyway. The point... The point in playing a game is all about the fun-factor. This is not an encyclopedia of stats. This is a game--a game, in which, 98.768% of the concepts do not have real-world data to support them. Fixing the fun-factor of minor league managing TRUMPS the "hard-data" of actual minor league promotions/demotions. Finally, as it stands there is no "hard-data" that supports the way that OOTP currently handles promotions/demotions. I'd go so far as to hazard a guess that if someone DID (not constantly talking about one day getting hard-data) got real world data I'd bet a dollar to a donut that it is implemented poorly as of now. All of you know that I love this game and that I am generally positive. But if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck!!
__________________
PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam. Last edited by Honorable_Pawn; 06-02-2013 at 11:53 AM. |
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06-02-2013, 02:40 PM
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#34 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks
Posts: 8,870
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06-02-2013, 05:00 PM
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#35 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Up There
Posts: 15,405
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06-02-2013, 05:20 PM
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#36 |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 538
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I've posted real world data. 5 posts up from this one.
If nothing else, it should be enough to demonstrate that there's a problem with Rookie League movement. |
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06-02-2013, 05:52 PM
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#37 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Up There
Posts: 15,405
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Quote:
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06-02-2013, 06:02 PM
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#38 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks
Posts: 8,870
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06-02-2013, 06:47 PM
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#39 | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
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Quote:
Yeah, right. |
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06-02-2013, 06:53 PM
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#40 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks
Posts: 8,870
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