New Non-HW Boxers Rated - Page 28

Ronnie · 12-22-2004, 05:02 AM

Conn Chris

I'm currently doing a current fighters universe and more Straw weights are needed. I know I could look all the ones you've created up in Boxrec, but could you tell us, both with the ones you've done already and with any future ones you might still do, whether they are still active or not.

You and everyone else who create fighters are doing a great job. One day when I have more time and more importantly more confidence , I too will give it a bash.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 05:36 AM

Most of these strawweights are retired (recently so); a few were active. I tried to set them to active or retired as appropriate, but if I missed one you can look at their career period at the bottom of the fighter card. The active ones will have no career end year, I am almost certain that all those are cerrect.

Looking forward to seeing you and other create fighters, don't sweat it - if someone does not like your ratings, they can change them or delete the record - that's the great thing about this game.

One tip that I just realized I should have been doing (kicking myself) is to add the Roxrec number to the top of the bio field. When I bring a new fighter off the shelf and into my universe, I briefly look at Boxrec to first see if I generally agree or disagree with the ratings. If I disagree, I might test a bit. I had forgotten until recently that you can put the Boxrec number in there and save others a bit of time.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 06:56 AM

ARBIN MATTA

Hometown - Kupang, Indonesia

18(9)-5-2

Matta began with a 17-0-1 record that led to an IBO Strawweight title bout with Noel Tunacao. He had a technical draw with Muhammad Rachman after recieving a head but and TKO'd Nico Thomas. 2004 was a tough year, Matta dropped the three bouts that he was involved in.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 07:02 AM

STEVE MSIMANGA

Born - Orlando, Soweto, South Africa

14(13)-6-2

Msimanga held the South African Strawweight Title and the Gauteng Jr. Flyweight Title. He has lost his last three bouts and has yet to be tested outside of his homeland.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 07:50 AM

I am finding this division tough to rate for the following reasons:

1) Not much in the way of stock rated fighters to test against (40 or so) and many of these Straws didn't fight any of them

2) The division seems to be very unpredictable. A guy will be dropped by a fighter I consider to be poor then fight to a 12 round draw or beat a fighter that I consider to be good - that's tough to rate. It is as if the Heavyweight equivalent of Spinks over Ali or Douglas over Tyson is the norm with the Straws, what adds even more unpredictability is the equivelant to a Peter McNeeley will get a number of title shots and may win one.

3) Their careers are in general relatively short and they spend much of it protecting their records against stiffs.

The only constant seems to be that a lot of them kick old Nico Thomas around pretty good.

So, I am being a bit unorthodox in how I rate these guys; here is what I do:

1) I take a group of 6 to 10 straws and put them in a pecking order. I use the world rank for the active guys and plug retired fighters in where they seem to logicaly fit.

2) I find a stock rated straw that closely mirrors the top and bottom guys on the pecking order based on career fights, opponents, title shots, et cetera.

3) I tweak the top and bottom guys a bit based on subjective things and rate everyone between on a pro-rata basis. Then tweak each one based on anything that jumps out at me.

4) I test them against each other to see that the pecking order holds true.

The difficulty that I find in testing these guys against the rated straws that came with the game is that they often are so unpredicatable in real life that testing against their real life opponents is of limited value.

I know that rating fighters is a bit subjective, but this is starting to feel REALY subjective. I just don't see a better alternative for this division.

Anyway, any thoughts, critiques or comments are more than welcome.

CONN

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 11:16 AM

Another note - has anyone else ever tried to rate a fair number of Straws? I found that once I really got into it, I couldn't rate the way I did for all the other divisions (even the Flys). I found it nearly impossible to get a guy to consistantly lose to the fighters he lost to in real life AND to consistantly win against the guys he really beat. It is almnost like you need two ratings for each fighter and a random way to determine which fighter shows up on a given night. I have always liked the lower weights from a fan/viewing perspective but I never paid this much attention to the Straws. Are they really this unpredictable or am I in a delutional haze?

My goal was to just get a workable strawweight division. I want to add 80 to 100 fighters to the 40 or so that come stock with the game and I have already created 330 or so stiffs/tomato cans to use as fodder.

CONN

mh2365 · 12-22-2004, 12:41 PM

That's why when I create fighters for my universe I am less exact on how I do it ... I don't have the patience to playtest. Keep up the good work. In a few years when I start to hit the 50's and 60's and 70's I will appreciate it even more. LOL

LeeSkye · 12-22-2004, 02:27 PM

Quote:

It is almnost like you need two ratings for each fighter and a random way to determine which fighter shows up on a given night.

What about using the "Conditioning" category to give you the randomness you are seeing. I don't think they were meant to be used for this kind of problem but maybe they do reflect what you are seeing. #4 is Weight problems-maybe they have trouble getting down to weight and suffer. Or maybe just #9....."head case"

There are a number you could use....

Just a thought off the top of my head as I have not tried to rate straws myself. Thanks for all your hard work.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 04:55 PM

Dynamite idea LeeSky - I'll give that a whirl.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 09:21 PM

LeeSkye: That works a bit and may be a trail to go down. If I rate all the staws with a condition number of 4,5, 9 or whatever the same problem exists - you don't see the seemly poorer fighters winning or pushing a better guy to the limit much. I think that if you use a 5 condition for overall 5's and higher and 1,2,3 or 4 on overall 4's and below you get a LITTLE more in the way of seeming upsets being the norm. Using more than a 5 for control on the 5's and higher swings it too much the wrong way. I think for now, I will set all overall 5's and higher at 5 condition and the rest at something less than that; perhaps use a subjective gradient based on the number of upsets or full-lenghth title shot losses that a guy has. I don't know how it will work out, but thanks for an idea that may be worth something

Anyway, here's another one. I really do think that this division is going to require endless tweaking so tweak away and if you get good results post your tweaked versions.

MAWANDA SINEKO
Hometown - East London, South Africa
18(6)-6-2
Sineko drew with fellow countryman Steve Msimanga for the IBO Strawweight title and lost a bid for the South African title to Khulile Makeba. He has yet to be stopped in 26 pro bouts.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 10:11 PM

Ok, I won't bore you all and belabor the point any more than this. But here is a clasic example of what makes this Starw division tough to rate:

La Ode Zaenudin Basez. A journeyman at best with a career record of 4-10-1.

Muhammad Rachman. 49-7-3, one of the better fighters in the division and the current IBF champ

Basez' one draw is with guess who. A 6 round affair, early in their careers, but still a draw against one of the big boys of the division.

It gets better though. Basez won the Indonesian title with one of those 4 career wins. Guess who he beat? A 12 round decision and Rachman was 20-5-1 at the time.

Ok, maybe this guy just had Rachman's number for some reason. Perhaps, but this type of thing happens all over this division ALL the time.

Now, if I rate Basez to perform properly against Rachman, he will walk though the division - that just can't be. But, he did have a 1-1-1 record against a damn good fighter. Maybe the answer is to rate them as I think they should be without respect to this unpredictable stuff and use the conditioning adjustment noted in the prior thread to allow these uncertainties that are the norm to play a role.

We shall see, this is fun!

CONN

LeeSkye · 12-22-2004, 10:44 PM

CONN CHRIS I experimented a little more as well and I agree with your assesments. If this problem is persistent for all the straws it will drive a guy nuts.

You are a great contibutor to the boards and I appreciate your enthusiastic work-thanks a lot.

CONN CHRIS · 12-22-2004, 11:22 PM

Ok, I am taking back my words - I am going to bore you with this afterall.

I created a file for Basez, perhaps my ratings suck, but that's not the point.

With Basez set as I think he should be including a condition rating of 5 and Rachman with the "6" that his stock file has, Rachman wins 99% of the bouts and generally, Basez only wins when Rachman is stopped on cuts.

If I drop Basez to a condition of 1 and leave Rachman as is, but now Basez will generaly win one decision and one stoppage other than from cuts per 100 bouts.

I have to move Rachman up to a "12" condition rating to get anything that looks good. At that setting, Basez will win 3-5 decisions per 100 bouts. I can live with that, but I can't accept what that might do to Rachman over a career.

So, for now, my stance with these straws is going to be to do a straight rating for everyone and put all the fighters who are a 6 overall and lower at a "1" condition rating. All 7 overall fighters and above will get a 5 to 7 condition. This may screw everything up over the long haul, but that's what tweaking is for.

Thanks for the great idea LeeSkye, it may prove out to not really work all that well, but then again it might be just the ticket. A fun run either way though.

For anyone that gives a rip about fighters that weigh 105 pounds in full dress after dinner, here is Basez' file.

CONN

La Ode Zaenudin Basez (fought as "Julio de la Basez" earlier in his career)
Hometown - Surabaya, Indonesia
4(1)-10-3
Basez has had a lackluster journeyman's career with one large exception; he absolutely has Muhammad Rachman's number. In his pro debut, Basez lost to Rachman on points in an undercard six rounder. 3 1/2 months later the two faced off in a 6 rounder again and fought to a draw. Fast forward 2 1/2 years, Rachman has established himself as a force within the stawweight division. Basez, on the other hand, has been less than stunning, fighting only 3 times with one win and a KO loss. The two go at it again with the Indonesian title on the line and Basez pulls out a 12 round decision win! Basez never approached this kind of quality fight in the years since that 1997 bout. In fact he only scored two more victories. One was against a fellow journeyman, the other was a controversial technical decision in the fifth round of a scheduled ten rounder with Ernesto Rubillar.

CONN CHRIS · 12-23-2004, 06:20 AM

KENNETH MALDONADO

Hometown - Albuquerque, New Mexico

6(5)-2-0

A hard hitting straw that fought in New Mexico for a few years. Both of his losses were stoppages.

CONN CHRIS · 12-23-2004, 06:24 AM

MARTI POLII

Born - Manado, Indonesia (lives in Jakarta)

5(3)-3-0

Took the Indonesian Strawweight title from La Syukur but was stripped following his second non-title bout (a loss) within 6 mo

CONN CHRIS · 12-23-2004, 06:27 AM

FAISOL AKBAR

Born - Indonesia

5(0)-6-2

Akbar is a former IBF Intercontinental and Indonesian Stawweight title holder. He was rather inactive over his 11 year career and has a mediocre record. However, He holds impressive wins over Muhammad Rachman (2) and Namchai Ratanachaigym. Also fought to a 12 round decision loss with Ronnie Magramo for the WBF belt.

CONN CHRIS · 12-23-2004, 06:28 AM

LYALL APPO

Born - Queensland, Australia

7(3)-1-0

Queensland local that held both the Queensland and Australian Strawweight titles during his brief career.

CONN CHRIS · 12-23-2004, 06:28 AM

RICK BUDGEN

Born - Queensland, Australia

3(1)-6-1

Local boxer that held the Australian Strwaweight title briefly. Fought Lyall Appo three times lossing twice. His only fight outside his homeland was a 4 round KO to Thai Kwanjai 3K Battery in Bangkok.

hamed · 12-23-2004, 01:30 PM

Conn Chris: Great stuff, as always! I love the data & especially some of the unique names - Lucas could use some of them for his next Star Wars pic!

I see the Aussie Straw you just posted, have you heard of or seen stats of a guy named Vic Vic Patrick (spelling?) - a LW out of Australia? I saw his named mentioned in an article about the new IBF Fly champ, Vic Darchinyan.

CONN CHRIS · 12-23-2004, 02:07 PM

Thank you for the kind words hamed. I don't known too much about Darchinyan yet, other than he looks like he could be a monster in the flys. What is his weight like? If he is a natural fly and doesn't struggle with it, everyone better look over their shoulder.

If he is the real deal a fight with Wonjongkam would be great. Even though they are at different career stages, they are about the same age. Not sure how keen the IBF and WBC would be on a unification bout. Always fun to see sluggers go at it and see who drops first.

I know nothing about this Vic Vic fellow, let us know if you see something on him.

CONN

12-22-2004, 05:36 AM	#542
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Most of these strawweights are retired (recently so); a few were active. I tried to set them to active or retired as appropriate, but if I missed one you can look at their career period at the bottom of the fighter card. The active ones will have no career end year, I am almost certain that all those are cerrect. Looking forward to seeing you and other create fighters, don't sweat it - if someone does not like your ratings, they can change them or delete the record - that's the great thing about this game. One tip that I just realized I should have been doing (kicking myself) is to add the Roxrec number to the top of the bio field. When I bring a new fighter off the shelf and into my universe, I briefly look at Boxrec to first see if I generally agree or disagree with the ratings. If I disagree, I might test a bit. I had forgotten until recently that you can put the Boxrec number in there and save others a bit of time. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

12-22-2004, 07:50 AM	#545
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Ratings the Straws I am finding this division tough to rate for the following reasons: 1) Not much in the way of stock rated fighters to test against (40 or so) and many of these Straws didn't fight any of them 2) The division seems to be very unpredictable. A guy will be dropped by a fighter I consider to be poor then fight to a 12 round draw or beat a fighter that I consider to be good - that's tough to rate. It is as if the Heavyweight equivalent of Spinks over Ali or Douglas over Tyson is the norm with the Straws, what adds even more unpredictability is the equivelant to a Peter McNeeley will get a number of title shots and may win one. 3) Their careers are in general relatively short and they spend much of it protecting their records against stiffs. The only constant seems to be that a lot of them kick old Nico Thomas around pretty good. So, I am being a bit unorthodox in how I rate these guys; here is what I do: 1) I take a group of 6 to 10 straws and put them in a pecking order. I use the world rank for the active guys and plug retired fighters in where they seem to logicaly fit. 2) I find a stock rated straw that closely mirrors the top and bottom guys on the pecking order based on career fights, opponents, title shots, et cetera. 3) I tweak the top and bottom guys a bit based on subjective things and rate everyone between on a pro-rata basis. Then tweak each one based on anything that jumps out at me. 4) I test them against each other to see that the pecking order holds true. The difficulty that I find in testing these guys against the rated straws that came with the game is that they often are so unpredicatable in real life that testing against their real life opponents is of limited value. I know that rating fighters is a bit subjective, but this is starting to feel REALY subjective. I just don't see a better alternative for this division. Anyway, any thoughts, critiques or comments are more than welcome. CONN __________________ Check Out My Cards! Last edited by CONN CHRIS; 12-22-2004 at 09:23 AM.

12-22-2004, 11:16 AM	#546
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Another note - has anyone else ever tried to rate a fair number of Straws? I found that once I really got into it, I couldn't rate the way I did for all the other divisions (even the Flys). I found it nearly impossible to get a guy to consistantly lose to the fighters he lost to in real life AND to consistantly win against the guys he really beat. It is almnost like you need two ratings for each fighter and a random way to determine which fighter shows up on a given night. I have always liked the lower weights from a fan/viewing perspective but I never paid this much attention to the Straws. Are they really this unpredictable or am I in a delutional haze? My goal was to just get a workable strawweight division. I want to add 80 to 100 fighters to the 40 or so that come stock with the game and I have already created 330 or so stiffs/tomato cans to use as fodder. CONN __________________ Check Out My Cards! Last edited by CONN CHRIS; 12-22-2004 at 11:18 AM.

12-22-2004, 04:55 PM	#549
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Dynamite idea LeeSky - I'll give that a whirl. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

12-22-2004, 10:11 PM	#551
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Ok, I won't bore you all and belabor the point any more than this. But here is a clasic example of what makes this Starw division tough to rate: La Ode Zaenudin Basez. A journeyman at best with a career record of 4-10-1. Muhammad Rachman. 49-7-3, one of the better fighters in the division and the current IBF champ Basez' one draw is with guess who. A 6 round affair, early in their careers, but still a draw against one of the big boys of the division. It gets better though. Basez won the Indonesian title with one of those 4 career wins. Guess who he beat? A 12 round decision and Rachman was 20-5-1 at the time. Ok, maybe this guy just had Rachman's number for some reason. Perhaps, but this type of thing happens all over this division ALL the time. Now, if I rate Basez to perform properly against Rachman, he will walk though the division - that just can't be. But, he did have a 1-1-1 record against a damn good fighter. Maybe the answer is to rate them as I think they should be without respect to this unpredictable stuff and use the conditioning adjustment noted in the prior thread to allow these uncertainties that are the norm to play a role. We shall see, this is fun! CONN __________________ Check Out My Cards!

12-22-2004, 05:02 AM	#541
Ronnie Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Inverness Scotland Posts: 52	Conn Chris I'm currently doing a current fighters universe and more Straw weights are needed. I know I could look all the ones you've created up in Boxrec, but could you tell us, both with the ones you've done already and with any future ones you might still do, whether they are still active or not. You and everyone else who create fighters are doing a great job. One day when I have more time and more importantly more confidence , I too will give it a bash.

12-22-2004, 12:41 PM	#547
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	That's why when I create fighters for my universe I am less exact on how I do it ... I don't have the patience to playtest. Keep up the good work. In a few years when I start to hit the 50's and 60's and 70's I will appreciate it even more. LOL

12-22-2004, 10:44 PM	#552
LeeSkye All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Igloo Posts: 1,279	CONN CHRIS I experimented a little more as well and I agree with your assesments. If this problem is persistent for all the straws it will drive a guy nuts. You are a great contibutor to the boards and I appreciate your enthusiastic work-thanks a lot. __________________ What If Championship Boxing

12-23-2004, 01:30 PM	#559
hamed Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,073	Conn Chris: Great stuff, as always! I love the data & especially some of the unique names - Lucas could use some of them for his next Star Wars pic! I see the Aussie Straw you just posted, have you heard of or seen stats of a guy named Vic Vic Patrick (spelling?) - a LW out of Australia? I saw his named mentioned in an article about the new IBF Fly champ, Vic Darchinyan.

12-23-2004, 02:07 PM	#560
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Thank you for the kind words hamed. I don't known too much about Darchinyan yet, other than he looks like he could be a monster in the flys. What is his weight like? If he is a natural fly and doesn't struggle with it, everyone better look over their shoulder. If he is the real deal a fight with Wonjongkam would be great. Even though they are at different career stages, they are about the same age. Not sure how keen the IBF and WBC would be on a unification bout. Always fun to see sluggers go at it and see who drops first. I know nothing about this Vic Vic fellow, let us know if you see something on him. CONN __________________ Check Out My Cards!