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Old 12-02-2019, 02:20 PM   #41
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Tanking isn't a sweeping, frequent, systematic problem (despite what these threads have some people believing). The solutions proposed here are ridiculously over the top and dramatically change how the game and economy function. I mean, getting rid of the relegation ladder?? I do think tying PP to wins is a decent shot at a solution, though of course you definitely now heavily bias your economy towards teams who got to the top the soonest which is not a good feature in a game. Plus it's kind of boring; if I pitch a perfect game, I'd like to be rewarded.

The economy is actually pretty well structured overall, and the transition from base game to PT is pretty smooth. There is no reason to mess with that process when automatic (and discreet) detection of cheaters is really not hard to do, and especially because it's not a huge problem either.

Honestly, if you want to stop people from unfairly raking in easy PP, the L7 bug is FAR more important to fix than the tanking issue.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:37 PM   #42
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I actually disagree with the statement that the economy is well structured. The current structure makes it so that the most efficient strategy is to stay as bad as possible for as long as possible and only upgrading the lineup when there are multiple significant improvements which allow for maximum point generation while slowly working through the promotion mechanic. There is zero reward for incrementalization - teams actually get punished with the PT Purgatory of few achievements if their marginal team gets hot and make a playoff run and get promoted to a league they aren't ready for.

I have lamented the fact that I won because I knew my team got lucky and was not prepared to compete at the next level and that it would require a lot more time now to accrue the points necessary to improve to be competitive. Nobody should ever have a reason to be upset at winning. This is a problem. This is why people tank.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dogberry99 View Post
I have lamented the fact that I won because I knew my team got lucky and was not prepared to compete at the next level and that it would require a lot more time now to accrue the points necessary to improve to be competitive. Nobody should ever have a reason to be upset at winning. This is a problem. This is why people tank.

This is what is meant by an improperly aligned incentive.


I too have thought, "oh, damn, I'm being promoted:"


And now that I've actually reached Perfect, I understand why you would tank. There is really no way at this point for me to catch up with the top teams in these divisions, short of spending money.... or.....


So I can spend the rest of PT satisfied trying to have a 500 record - with little chance of making the playoffs, or drop a few levels and not only reap a huge PP bonanza, but, at least at Diamond level, I face a fun challenge.


So, now that I've "succeeded" by reaching Perfect, there is nothing left to do because there is no way to catch the whales short of dropping a bunch of dough. (Can I lament again the collapse of the FTP leagues?)


I wasn't about to tank, but DAMN, 50K would def. help my team!

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Old 12-02-2019, 04:06 PM   #44
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I'm a relatively new player so I may not know the full scope of tanking, but from what I have seen it is done by:

1 - using all your stud cards in the regular season, racking up achievements and PP
2 - pulling those cards and playing reserve iron cards in playoffs to ensure you lose in the 1st round and don't get promoted.
3 - rinse, repeat

An easy solution to this that does not affect the economics of the game it to automatically promote the top 2 teams based on regular season performance, and then the top 2 other teams based on playoffs performance.

Now there is still incentive to do well in playoffs, and if you kill it in the regular season, then tanking in the playoffs does nothing.

Problem solved?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:12 PM   #45
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So you put in iron players in September to avoid being top 2. Or you promote then tank the next year. Or any number of different things.

All of this has been beaten to death. When you literally have to make it against the rules to lose in a competitive game there is a fundamental problem. People should want to win.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whifflebird View Post
I'm a relatively new player so I may not know the full scope of tanking, but from what I have seen it is done by:

1 - using all your stud cards in the regular season, racking up achievements and PP
2 - pulling those cards and playing reserve iron cards in playoffs to ensure you lose in the 1st round and don't get promoted.
3 - rinse, repeat

An easy solution to this that does not affect the economics of the game it to automatically promote the top 2 teams based on regular season performance, and then the top 2 other teams based on playoffs performance.

Now there is still incentive to do well in playoffs, and if you kill it in the regular season, then tanking in the playoffs does nothing.

Problem solved?
Playoff tanking isn't necessarily the issue. Some people just get a 140 win season in iron followed by an intentionally bad 40 win season in bronze or something
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:37 PM   #47
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Tanking threads must be the most common topic ever on these boards.

My FTP teams are in Diamond and Perfect level. Why should I care if someone is trying to game the system at the Iron or Bronze level by getting into the playoffs and then tanking to avoid promotion?

Is the concern that by themselves, they will impact auction prices? Seems unlikely. Is it that someday they will accumulate enough of a roster that they will stop tanking, rise through the levels and I will have to play them in a Perfect level league?

It always seems that the level of emotion on this topic is disproportionate to the odds of it actually impacting the average player. What am I missing?
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:15 PM   #48
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Tanking threads must be the most common topic ever on these boards.

My FTP teams are in Diamond and Perfect level. Why should I care if someone is trying to game the system at the Iron or Bronze level by getting into the playoffs and then tanking to avoid promotion?

Is the concern that by themselves, they will impact auction prices? Seems unlikely. Is it that someday they will accumulate enough of a roster that they will stop tanking, rise through the levels and I will have to play them in a Perfect level league?

It always seems that the level of emotion on this topic is disproportionate to the odds of it actually impacting the average player. What am I missing?
This is a point I was going to make. I mean, I made a F2P team 7 weeks ago under the restriction that no historical gold+ cards could be sold. They're currently in Perfect with a rotation of 100 Waddell, SE Vida, SE Brecheen, SE Sheets, and some really good other pitchers. Only major pack pull I've had to add to that was a 99 Brown I got a few days ago, but the team dominated all the levels (1st in runs/ERA through bronze/silver/gold/diamond with the sole exception of one 2nd place finish in runs in the gold week) without needing him. F2P accessibility is really good, Perfect is just a wakeup call in that you can't only depend on achievement PP to teambuild.

I think people just don't like the feeling of PP achievement income being reduced as they promote because many of them solely rely on that for teambuilding. But making it so that everyone above them is and has always been earning more PP than they have isn't a good way to fix the problem, it just creates a wealth gap and makes it extremely hard to promote or demote once that initial relegation ladder is made.

Maybe the best answer is just to give like a 5kPP bonus the first time you promote to a new level. Might soften the blow a little and help the transition while also making people excited to promote.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:11 PM   #49
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F2P and your staff is Waddell-Blue-Breechen and can't fit a 99???


You are enough of an outlier to be living with Doc Manhattan on Mars.


I've been playing almost 24 wks and my best squad staff has Clevinger-Kluber-Severino and golds. I have one team out of three with a single historical diamond pitcher.



You are some incredibly lucky SOB if you pulled all those.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:16 PM   #50
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F2P and your staff is Waddell-Blue-Breechen and can't fit a 99???


You are enough of an outlier to be living with Doc Manhattan on Mars.


I've been playing almost 24 wks and my best squad staff has Clevinger-Kluber-Severino and golds. I have one team out of three with a single historical diamond pitcher.



You are some incredibly lucky SOB if you pulled all those.
You can make millions of PP working the AH hard. Just because you can't do it, means the only explanation is...?
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:18 PM   #51
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Yeah, I started playing PT 7 weeks ago, also ftp. Haven't packed a diamond for 6 weeks, most golds have been live duplicates, most silvers 70/71 relievers, got promoted to gold too quickly, etc.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:19 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Morgans Magic View Post
F2P and your staff is Waddell-Blue-Breechen and can't fit a 99???


You are enough of an outlier to be living with Doc Manhattan on Mars.


I've been playing almost 24 wks and my best squad staff has Clevinger-Kluber-Severino and golds. I have one team out of three with a single historical diamond pitcher.



You are some incredibly lucky SOB if you pulled all those.
I didn't pull any of those. I pulled 99 Brown a few days ago, but the only time he's seen on my roster has been during the diamond playoffs and a very brief stint at the end of the diamond season last week for which I didn't really need the help. In fact, before pulling the 99 Brown (which, again, played no role in my success up to this point), my pulls were actually really bad compared to the number of packs I've seen. In 8 diamond packs, I pulled 7 quicksell lives and a POTM Bieber. Really not that impressive. Even without Brown, I'm probably still a quite competitive team at the Perfect level.

And since the rule was in place to make sure I couldn't sell gold+ cards (this is the BFF league rule), I didn't fund my team by selling one big pull. All of this was just built from a good teambuilding and collections strategy. Waddell, Vida, Brecheen, and Sheets are all SE cards which I built myself. I did this by parlaying a bunch of collections together, selling the rewards, redoubling the returns, and just continuing to reinvest PP into collections for players and PP at every opportunity. You don't need pulls to be successful as FTP.

EDIT: For the curious, the team is the Santa Barbara Golden Gophers. If you play Silver or Bronze 32s, you may have seen them. Currently 82 missions completed and 68 tourney wins, though the tourney number is somewhat inflated by when DoDs still paid out 500 PP. That's good enough for 131st in PT universe for completed missions and 6th in PT universe for tourney wins. That gives you a bit of a hint as to where a lot of the PP came from.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:37 PM   #53
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hmmm. Well I'll admit I put my PP into my team, not into collections, and I have never bought a DP. Indeed, there have only been a couple times I have even had 20K PP.

So clearly, not completing collections and spending PP on the AH to build a team was a poor decision from a pure PP standpoint, which, I'll be honest, wasn't real clear when I started.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:41 PM   #54
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hmmm. Well I'll admit I put my PP into my team, not into collections, and I have never bought a DP. Indeed, there have only been a couple times I have even had 20K PP.

So clearly, not completing collections and spending PP on the AH to build a team was a poor decision from a pure PP standpoint, which, I'll be honest, wasn't real clear when I started.
I never bought any diamond packs either, those all came from collections. Really, collections are the way you generate a lot of PP as a FTP player, not achievements. Achievements help and especially they help initially, but if you're not using collections to teambuild, you're just throwing good players and opportunities for PP down the drain. I think the classic examples are Lenny Dykstra and Eddie Plank. You can get both of those ~20-25k cards for about half price, and with it comes a whole pile of competitive live cards from the As and Phillies. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:56 PM   #55
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No promotion and relegation.

Every team is assigned to a tier at the start of the week based on the overall rating of their active roster (same logic as cap tournaments). During the week the overall value of your roster cannot go higher or lower than a specified number.
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My point is a team must use (as an example) the best 35 players it has to populate its Active roster. If it buys a better player, the better player must replace the weakest card in the 35-List. This "rule" must be followed all season long INCLUDING playoffs. In this way, the only way you can relegate your team to a lower level is to sell off your player(s) on this 35-List.

In this scenario, the ONLY way you could force yourself to be relegated is to sell from your 35-List.
These are terrible ideas because the overall rating is terrible and inconsistent, between live and historical players, and inside those two piles as well. You can not base *anything* on overall ratings, because it a) fluctuates for six months in unpredictable ways, and b) is arbitrary and useless to begin with. Just look at the bronze historical cards of choice; I don't have to name names, but a certain catcher is rated 69 and popular even in Perfect League.

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The solution isn't hard. For example, take players that were relegated in 2 consecutive weeks. That is very unlikely to be anything but tanking, since the relegation talent gap tends to be pretty large.
That is easier to achieve than you think. My Rebs accidentally wild-carded their way to a Diamond title, got destroyed in Perfect, and missed relegation to Gold by less than a handful games in the last few seasons. I am not trying to tank. My rosters are out there.

I have no trust in OOTPD adding any sort of algorithm to police tanking because the ones already alleged to be around fail to prevent pretty much anything except selling cards between teams on the same licence... and that only sometimes. Each and every case would have to be reviewed by hand, which they are probably doing anyway, which is why nothing moves, at all.

+++

The last idea I had to combat playoff tanking is actually rather simple:

Rule 1: Only cards that played at least 27 games (6 games for SPs) during the regular season are eligible for the playoffs. [This is 1/6 of a season and should prevent the backup catcher from being eliminatd by accident]
Rule 2: Two (three? four?) cards on the playoff roster are exempt from rule 1. [This allows for the addition of weekend pack pulls]
Rule 3: Exempt cards under Rule 2 can't be more than one level below the team's league level. (So a Perfect team can add Diamonds, but not Golds or lower)

September removals?

Rule 4: Cards that were removed from the 25-man roster after July 31 of the previous season can't be added to the roster again until June 1 of the next season.

Of course the current PT framework, a copy-paste job from base OOTP, does hardly support any of this.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:09 PM   #56
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The last idea I had to combat playoff tanking is actually rather simple:

Rule 1: Only cards that played at least 27 games (6 games for SPs) during the regular season are eligible for the playoffs. [This is 1/6 of a season and should prevent the backup catcher from being eliminatd by accident]
Rule 2: Two (three? four?) cards on the playoff roster are exempt from rule 1. [This allows for the addition of weekend pack pulls]
Rule 3: Exempt cards under Rule 2 can't be more than one level below the team's league level. (So a Perfect team can add Diamonds, but not Golds or lower)

September removals?

Rule 4: Cards that were removed from the 25-man roster after July 31 of the previous season can't be added to the roster again until June 1 of the next season.

Of course the current PT framework, a copy-paste job from base OOTP, does hardly support any of this.
I like the creativity of these ideas. It would be nice to have some resemblance to actual MLB, where you need to be on a roster before a certain date. Adding realism/varying rhythm to the seasons are always good. Just need to find a subset of these kinds of suggestions that are relatively easy to communicate to people, otherwise you'll get endless complaints about bugs and/or how the game is broken.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:14 PM   #57
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I never bought any diamond packs either, those all came from collections. Really, collections are the way you generate a lot of PP as a FTP player, not achievements. Achievements help and especially they help initially, but if you're not using collections to teambuild, you're just throwing good players and opportunities for PP down the drain. I think the classic examples are Lenny Dykstra and Eddie Plank. You can get both of those ~20-25k cards for about half price, and with it comes a whole pile of competitive live cards from the As and Phillies. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Well, I have about 15K in PP now, and nothing else to do with my team stuck in middle of the pack PL purgatory, so I'll give it a try.



I was always a bit too interested in trying to get better players to buy a lot of players I couldn't use, and the collections often seemed a bit hard to complete in that I looked and they always seemed to have a card that was way expensive locking it. I suppose that was a leap I wasn't willing to take. I believed you could just build a good team by buying wisely and cheaply and promoting. Really cool that you were able to complete so many missions in just 7 weeks.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:36 PM   #58
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Well, I have about 15K in PP now, and nothing else to do with my team stuck in middle of the pack PL purgatory, so I'll give it a try.



I was always a bit too interested in trying to get better players to buy a lot of players I couldn't use, and the collections often seemed a bit hard to complete in that I looked and they always seemed to have a card that was way expensive locking it. I suppose that was a leap I wasn't willing to take. I believed you could just build a good team by buying wisely and cheaply and promoting. Really cool that you were able to complete so many missions in just 7 weeks.
There's a nice parallel in that there's another player who was playing with a team under the same "no selling gold+" cards restriction, starting at the same place as I did (Carraway Daisies). They didn't really utilize collections as heavily as I did, though they did build SE Harry Brecheen and locked Red Schoendienst in the process. But still, that was basically it, and only then because they saw a series of really amazing deals. They were also able to make it to Perfect in the same amount of time I did, sheerly by teambuilding well and picking up good deals on SE players, among other things. But very little AH work, not really any notable pack pulls, and some tourney grinding but not as much as some other people.

So, it's possible to take a team from nothing up to Perfect basically just from good teambuild and good decisions buying players. But now that we're both in Perfect, I'm in a much better position to compete for PL titles than they are. So you can surely get to Perfect by just making smart purchases and building your team well, but it takes a bit more than that to build something that can contend for PL titles, and for that you absolutely need collections.
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by whifflebird View Post
I'm a relatively new player so I may not know the full scope of tanking, but from what I have seen it is done by:

1 - using all your stud cards in the regular season, racking up achievements and PP
2 - pulling those cards and playing reserve iron cards in playoffs to ensure you lose in the 1st round and don't get promoted.
3 - rinse, repeat

An easy solution to this that does not affect the economics of the game it to automatically promote the top 2 teams based on regular season performance, and then the top 2 other teams based on playoffs performance.

Now there is still incentive to do well in playoffs, and if you kill it in the regular season, then tanking in the playoffs does nothing.

Problem solved?
Yeah, I agree, promoting teams based on regular season in some cases would help that one problem and really individual performances, you can have your PP!!
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:51 PM   #60
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Rule 3: Exempt cards under Rule 2 can't be more than one level below the team's league level. (So a Perfect team can add Diamonds, but not Golds or lower)
RIP Smoky Burgess, Garry Maddox, Al Kaline, Lou Boudreau, Martin Dihigo, and probably others I'm missing
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