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Old 12-27-2003, 04:16 PM   #61
Rasmuth
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this is very cool! Nice work.
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:40 PM   #62
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I am enjoying this Zech replay, although Sales and Bozzano are the only two fighters I recognize, and they are just "names" to me. I have a couple of questions about rating fighters you've never seen, based on only their records. How do you tell someone who has a granite chin (George Chuvalo) from someone who is a defense-first type of fighter (Joe Bugner)? How do you decide the proportion of punches thrown? Is there any good reference material or resource available on obscure fighters? Have you considered seeking out via the Internet a European specialist?

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Old 12-27-2003, 05:39 PM   #63
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I wish there was a lot more information on these obscure fighters but who know where it would be if it would be. I try to do a little search on the internet, but usually doesn't come up with much of anything. If you think about it as far as the past fighters go, the Trunzo's have probably done a lot of the work that can be had with with info there is. I mean the 400+ heavyweights that have already been rated, these guys are the cream of the crop of who you always read and hear about. These are the ones that you probably will find information on through books, film, magazine articles and such. These lesser fighters, I look at the records on Boxrec. try to apply what general parameters the Trunzo's have provided on rating a fighter, which isn't a whole lot that you can derive just from the fighters bout records. I take a fighter's record look at the number of bouts, average rounds fought, how may KO's he has, How may times he's been KO'd and this info will help you with some of the ratings by comparing with guys already rated. AS far as is a guy a granite chin like Chuvalo, what kind of defence did he exhibit, what was the porportionof the types of punches he thru, etc., I'm just making random applications. That's the only way I can do it. If somebody could provide me with all kinds of old copies of boxing magazines, books etc., maybe you'd find something written about some of these guys, but, I don't have stuff like that. So, to do what I want to do, I make my best guesses and random application of numbers to make these fighters up. How accurate is any of it. Well, what I'm doing with Zech is how I'm trying to see how good any of my rating for him is. Tweak the numbers to try and get his overall record, number of KO's, average of rounds etc. to come out with real life numbers that you can get from BoxRec. then I'll be happy with him. In the meantime, I'm doing this to build a stable of Heavyweights to have fun with. You think about it, you look at the guys that are rated right now, they did a LOT of boxing against these Drabes, Eugene and Wyns type fighters. That's a LOT more 1's that need to be put in the data base if you want to get an "accurate" replay of a boxer's career.

If there's others out here on this forum that can offer other suggestions on how to maybe better go about coming up with some of these numbers with the little information I got, boy, I'd love to hear from you!

Thanks for your comments jabbo. I'm glad your enjoying the replay as others have said they are. If I can see that out of all this, I figure what I've done has been a little good for the TBCB gaming community then!

Thanks
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:41 PM   #64
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I just now realized I forgot to change the fighter name in Zech's 10th bout. It should be Jose Gonzalez Sales. Forgot to edit it from Mino in the last bout!

Sorry
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Old 12-27-2003, 09:42 PM   #65
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Exclamation A replay and new boxers, all in one!

Rocco;
Great job! An interesting replay and new boxers posted, all in one string!
I'm adding Sales and Wyn to my database and watching for any others I've remotely heard of.

David, Dean, et al ... more fighters, please!
Thanks!
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Old 12-28-2003, 01:49 AM   #66
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Well, I've taken a lot of fighters off this thread and haven't given any back. I feel guilty, so I will post George LaBlanche, a MW I just finished rating for my historical replay. LaBlanche had an interesting career. Boxrec shows his record at 33-4-9 at the time he fought the great 19th century middleweight Jack Dempsey, who was 45-0-8 at the time. In what had to be one of the great upsets in 19th century boxing, LaBlanche knocked out Dempsey in 32 rounds. But like a racehorse who runs far above his ability level for one race and never repeats it, the great performance took something out of LaBlanche. For the rest of his career, he was 5-20-3, suffering numerous early KOs.

George LaBlanche -1 overall
Canadian
b. 1856
Career 1882-1898
Record 38-24-12
Slugger Fouls Fre
CFB 6
CFS 6
HP 4
CKD 5
CKO 4
REC 3
CUTS 2
AP 2
KI 6
AGG 7
END 9
DEF 4
FS 3
OR 3
DP 3
CN 3
I 4
FI 2
FO 1
CU 1
GK 2
PL 34
CP 34
PM 62
CL 71
Punches
J 18/2
H 22/3
CR 22/3
CB 10/5
UC 13/2

Last edited by swampdragon; 12-28-2003 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 12-28-2003, 11:02 AM   #67
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swampdragon;
LaBlanche is a great addition in the tradition of Dean's Frank Mantell and Cyclone Thompson middleweight posts. All belong and are welcome. Thanks!

Keep 'em coming, guys!
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Old 12-28-2003, 10:14 PM   #68
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Sammy Goss

I noticed that Sammy Goss wasn't rated. He fought out of Trenton, NJ in the late 60s through the mid 70s. He was also my boxing coach for a while in the late 80s. He was rated #1 in the world for a few years during his fighting days. I have rated him. If anyone wants be to post it, sound off.

Mark J.

Also, I work with Billy Backus; who is rated in the game.
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Old 12-28-2003, 11:01 PM   #69
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Icetea,

Please go ahead and post Sammy Goss.
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Old 12-28-2003, 11:05 PM   #70
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I second that. Would love to add him. By all means, post him. He definitely belongs. Thanks!
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Old 12-29-2003, 04:24 PM   #71
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Cool A couple of heavyweight "opponents"

I've been copying quite a few fighters from this string without giving any back, so here are a couple of heavyweight journeymen/opponents/trialhorses for you who are performing as expected from my 1940-50 replay list.

First is Gino Buonvino, an Italian who later fought out of the US and posted a 19-9-2 record with 3 KOs, 1944-52. Weighed 195-206. He didn't beat anyone who's in the game, and lost to Lee Savold, Nick Barone, Joe Baksi and Roland LaStarza. He is most well known for two knockout losses to Rocky Marciano. Buonvino beat fringe contenders Art Henri and Jimmy Carollo, KO'd lightheavy Dolph Quijano and fought a draw with LH Herbie Katz.
Boxer/seldom
CFB/S 5/4
HP 2
CKD 3
CKO 3
REC 4
CUTS 2
AP 2
KI 4
AGG 4
END 7
DEF 2
FS 1
OR 2
DP 2
CON 2
INT 6
PRF 10
FI 2
FO 1
CU 2
GK 0
CLI 70
Punches
J 25/0
H 16.5/0
CR 19/0
CB 25/0
UC 14.5/0
PL 36
CP 32
PM 64
Rate 1

Next is Young Harry Wills of the US, who fought 1939-56, posting a 21-27-7 record with 5 KOs. He weighed 190-204, BoxRec 022094, and fought mostly contenders. His highlights were a win over Freddie Beshore and a draw with Unknown Winston. He lost to Kid Matthews, Pat Valentino, Rex Layne, Jimmy Bivins and Clarence Henry among fighters ranked by TBCB. Also lost to Buddy Walker, Rusty Payne, Buddy Knox and lightheavies Jimmy Reeves and Bobby Zander.
Boxer/seldom
CFB/S 4/4
HP 2
CKD 2
CKO 2
REC 3
CUTS 2
AP 2
KI 5
AGG 4
END 8
DEF 0
FS 2
OR 2
DP 1
CON 2
INT 7
PRF 10
FI 2
FO 1
CU 2
GK 3
CLI 70
Punches
J 25/0
H 17/0
CR 18/0
CB 25/0
UC 16/0
PL 34
CP 32
PM 66
Rate 1

Will post some more prominent guys in coming days. Thanks to those others who have posted fighters. I appreciate you guys.
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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us."
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Old 12-29-2003, 05:11 PM   #72
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Here is a light-heavy.

<b><font size=4>George Burnette</b></font>
Slugger, 4
Fouls occasionally
Career: 1936-43
Record: 41-13-4 (12)

CFB/S 7/8
HP 3
CKD 3
CKO 2
REC 3
CUTS 2
AP 2
KI 7
AGG 7
END 9
DEF 0
FS 3
OR 2
DP 1
CON 3
INT 4
PRF 10
FI 3
FO 1
CU 2
GK 2
CLI 70
Punches
J 21/2
H 16/2
CR 17/2
CB 19/3
UC 16/2
PL 36
CP 34
PM 64

Burnette lost twice to Anton Christoforidis on points, which kept him out of the ranks of contenders. Al Hostak flattened him in one round at Chicago Stadium in February 1941.
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Old 12-29-2003, 06:03 PM   #73
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Thanks, David! I'll be able to use Burnette in my replay, too. Am hitting the heavies pretty hard right now, but do have some lightheavies done, including a couple I'll post that you could possibly use in your 1930s replay.
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Old 12-29-2003, 08:34 PM   #74
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Smile Two for David, as promised

David;
Here are two who fought in the 1930-40 range, guys I added because they fought often and against several others already ranked in the game:

Steve Dudas of the US was a heavyweight, 1933-45, posting a 55-25-2 record with 14 KOs, BoxRec 013618. He fought at 181-200. Big wins for Dudas came against Red Burman, Bob Pastor, Nathan Mann, Tiger Williams, Unknown Winston and Bob Olin. Losses to fighters in the game included Al Ettore, Max Schmeling, Patsy Perroni, Jersey Joe Walcott, Burman, Mann, Roscoe Toles, Tami Mauriello, Pastor and Tiger Jack Fox. He also beat Buddy Knox and Billy Grant, lost to Heinz Lazek and Al Gainer, and split with Pat Comiskey.
Boxer/seldom
CFB/S 7/6
HP 5
CKD 3
CKO 2
REC 2
CUTS 2
AP 3
KI 5
AGG 6
END 7
DEF 2
FS 2
OR 2
DP 2
CON 3
INT 5
PRF 10
FI 2
FO 2
CU 2
GK 3
CLI 67
Punches
J 20/3.5
H 16/2.25
CR 19/3.25
CB 16.25/2.5
UC 15/2.25
PL 36
CP 34
PM 65
Rate 3

Al Gainer was a US lightheavweight, 1930-41, with a 77-26-6 record and 41 KOs fighting at anywhere from 166 to 193. BoxRec 021892. He had wins over Tony Galento, Tiger Jack Fox, Lou Brouillard, James J. Braddock, Dave Shade, Bob Olin, Al McCoy, George Nichols and Johnny Romero. He had a draw with Maxie Rosenbloom, and lost to Max Baer, Brouillard, Fox, Tony Shucco, John Henry Lewis, Shade, Nathan Mann, McCoy, Olin and Rosenbloom among fighters on the TBCB list. In other bouts of note, Gainer bear Lou Scozza and Dudas. Only Baer ever KO'd him.
Either/seldom
CFB/S 7/8
HP 7
CKD 2
CKO 1
REC 1
CUTS 1
AP 2
KI 7
AGG 6
END 9
DEF 2
FS 2
OR 1
DP 2
CON 3
INT 7
PRF 10
FI 1
FO 1
CU 3
GK 2
CLI 64
Punches
J 20/6
H 14/4
CR 15/5
CB 16/6
UC 12/2
PL 38
CP 34
PM 58
Rate 6

Hope those are helpful. More tomorrow!
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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us."
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Last edited by vistaman44; 12-29-2003 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 12-29-2003, 08:47 PM   #75
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Well done. This is proving to be a great thread.
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Old 12-29-2003, 09:37 PM   #76
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I've created a separate thread for newly rated fighters from the lower weight classes.

The new thread is <a href="http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51689">here</a>.
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Old 12-29-2003, 10:31 PM   #77
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Gosh, I take a couple days off from my replay and you guys are putting up some great stuff here!
Rocco
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Old 12-30-2003, 11:53 AM   #78
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Gerhard Zech's 11th fight.... 1961-02-05 Dortmund, Germany......

Al Kramp-1 Overall Rating
Nationality- Netherlands
b.
d.
Career, 1958-61
BoxRec. 034887
Record 3 wins / 7 losses / 0 draws / 3 KO
With Kramp's brief career it was either KO the opponent or get decked himself. The 3 wins he had were early KO's over some guy named Tommy Skovgaard boxing his first fight, Bruno Scarabellin who sported an impressive 18-0-0 record at the time, though I didn't look to see who any of his opponents were, and lastly, Werner Walloschek, whom a year before Zech had KO'd .
Kramp's other 7 career bouts, he was KO'd by the 4th round except for one fight in which he lasted until the 8th. Those losses included ones to Mino Bozzano, Albert Westphal, Wim Snoek for the then vacant Dutch Heavyweight Title, which I guess tells us something about the level of competition in the Netherlands, and lastly to Zech, who sent Kramp into retirement.
Another one of those fighters maybe you'd not even want to spend the time putting him into the game, unless you like an easy win for someone.

Control vs Boxer--3
Control vs Slugger--3
Hitting power--4
Chin vs knockdown--6
Chin vs knockout--7
Recovery--4
Cuts--3
Absorb punishment--4
Killer instinct--2
Aggressiveness--5
Endurance--5
Defense--4
Fast starter--3
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--1
Conditioning--2
Intellect--2
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--1
Outside--1
Cover up--1
Go for KO--1
Clinching--69

Style--Slugger
Fouls--Occasionally

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 18.5 1.0
Hooks 19.5 2.0
Crosses 15.25 1.0
Combinations 15.25 2.5
Uppercuts 21.0 4.0

Punching--30
Counterpunching--32
Missed--60

I set Kramp at "End" for his career because it was in fact his last fight. Zech with this fight now starts his "Pre-Prime" stage of his career. In real life Zech KO'd Kramp in the 3rd round for his 11th win without defeat or draw. With as bad as I thought I had the Kramp rated, I figured for an early KO in replay. Boy, did I get a surprise. Not only did Kramp not get KO'd(Zech did manage to floor him for a 6 count in the 7th), but Kramp went the distance in this 8 round fight!! Zech did get the UD, but.......??

Next fight will be at Kiel, Germany on March 11, 1961 against Frenchman, Jacques Strocchio(8-4-1 at the time of the fight)....
Be there!!!...
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Old 12-30-2003, 04:48 PM   #79
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Smile A couple of "Buddys"

Following are a couple of 1930-50 range journeyman U.S. heavyweights who fought often and against some of the best competition of their day without ever reaching top five status: Charles "Buddy" Knox and Jack "Buddy" Walker. Knox was done almost completely by David Myers, and David and I collaborated on Walker ...

Knox posted a 94-38-6 record with 37 KOs, 1934-47, fighting anywhere from 161 to 224 pounds. BoxRec 010535. He was 6-18-2 against fighters ranked by TBCB. Wins came against Unknown Winston, Al McCoy, Jorge Brescia and Bob Olin. He drew with Tony Musto twice. Losses came to Turkey Thompson, Joe Baksi, McCoy, Billy Conn, Pat Valentino, Red Burman, Lee Savold, Melio Bettina, Musto, Nathan Mann, Lee Oma, Arturo Godoy, Tommy Gomez, Tami Mauriello and Jimmy Bivins. He lost to Walker, Steve Dudas, Johnny Flynn and Joe Muscato, but upset Alabama Kid and drew with Walker.

Slugger/occasionally
CFB/S 7/8
HP 6
CKD 4
CKO 4
REC 3
CUTS 2
AP 3
KI 8
AGG 8
END 8
DEF 4
FS 1
OR 2
DP 1
CON 3
INT 5
PRF 10
FI 3
FO 1
CU 1
GK 3
CLI 72
Punches
J 15/0
H 22/7
CR 22/7
CB 15/0
UC 8/4
PL 36
CP 34
PM 65
Rate 2

Buddy Walker was 78-31-5 with 35 KOs, 1939-49. He weighed 186-203. BoxRec 012442. He was 11-16-2 against TBCB-ranked fighters. Wins against fighters in the game included Roscoe Toles, Gus Dorazio, Lee Oma, Patsy Perroni, Tony Musto and Curtis Sheppard. He also drew with Perroni and Toles. Losses came against Lee Q. Murray, Melio Bettina, Arturo Godoy, Archie Moore, Joe Baksi, Toles, Dorazio, Jimmy Bivins, Lee Savold, Sheppard and Joey Maxim. He also beat Bob Garner, Johnny Flynn, Abel Cestac, Knox and Harry Bobo; drew with Knox; and lost to Lou Brooks and Alabama Kid.

Slugger/occasionally
CFB/S 8/7
HP 7
CKD 4
CKO 4
REC 3
CUTS 2
AP 2
KI 7
AGG 9
END 8
DEF 4
FS 1
OR 3
DP 1
CON 2
INT 5
PRF 10
FI 2
FO 1
CU 1
GK 2
CLI 68
Punches
J 15/3
H 16/5
CR 16/5
CB 15/4
UC 17/4
PL 38
CP 34
PM 64
Rate 4

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Old 12-30-2003, 08:43 PM   #80
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Gerhard Zech's 12th fight.... 1961-03-11 Kiel, Germany......

Jacques Strocchio-1 Overall Rating
Nationality- France
b.
d.
Career, 1952-1961
BoxRec. 028309
Record 8 wins / 5 losses / 1 draws / 2 KO
Though his fights were a bid spread out, his career started out in decent fashion going 8-2-1 in mostly his native France. When he decided to meet some tougher competition in Italy and Germany though this career quickly derailed. In 1958 he was KO'd by Sante Amonti in 3 rounds. In 1959 in his next fight Ulli Nitzschke of Germany KO'd him. Then in early 1961 he meets Gerhard Zech who was 11-0 in his early career. Zech nails Strocchio in the 1st round knocking him out and sending Jacques into retirement.

Control vs Boxer--6
Control vs Slugger--5
Hitting power--2
Chin vs knockdown--6
Chin vs knockout--6
Recovery--3
Cuts--3
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--4
Aggressiveness--4
Endurance--8
Defense--0
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--2

Draw power--2
Conditioning--3
Intellect--5
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--3
Cover up--1
Go for KO--1
Clinching--69

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Occasionally

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 24.0 0.0
Hooks 13.0 1.0
Crosses 23.25 1.0
Combinations 15.5 1.0
Uppercuts 20.25 1.0

Punching--36
Counterpunching--34
Missed--64

As metioned above in the real thing, Zech put out Strocchio for good in the 1st round. In this replay, Zech downed Jacques in the 2nd round for a 5 count but then the Frenchman held on until the 6th round when after taking a pretty beating by the German, the fight was stopped at 0:27 of the 6th giving Gerhard the TKO and his 12 win.

Next fight for Gerhard will be at the Sports Palace in Berlin Germany going up against Belgium, Jose Peyre who is only 5-7-0 at that time in his meeting with Zech. Peyre actually fights on until 1970 compiling a 10-24-1-5KO record.
So we'll see you there at the Sports Palace.....
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