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Old 12-18-2019, 11:41 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobfather View Post
I think MLB should make a sister rule to the 3 batter minimum. No Pinch hitting for those 3 batters.
This has nothing to do with "fairness". This is about cutting out boring moments of the game where literally nothing happens. Pinch hitters do not get 8 free swings from the box and do not need to warm up. To the extent that they do, they make use of the on deck circle. In actual baseball, a team can announce a pinch hitter and boom, he takes the field. This is flat out not the case with a relief pitcher.
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Old 12-18-2019, 11:48 AM   #62
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dola,
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This
A team would do this once and then MLB would pass a rule against it the next offseason (if they didn't already interpret an existing rule - for instance the delay of game rules - to catch this loophole in the first place). Like, this exact thing happened in the NFL in the late 1980s when the Bengals and Bills were running the no-huddle offense and the Seahawks used their nose tackle Joe Nash to fake injuries so they could get different personnel on the field. I don't see why this would be some kind of game-bending issue.

I do like the idea of dumping, say, half the TV breaks as we move into an era that isn't all about television anymore. I do think that baseball will be very, very slow to adopt this, as the US model is you show the game, then you have a 90 second break, then you show the game again. I agree that that's increasingly a less and less viable model (and frankly even in its heyday everyone at home used those 90 seconds as bathroom / food replenishment / looking up stats in the encyclopedia breaks) but, well, nobody ever accused baseball of not hanging onto traditions for traditions' sake...
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Old 12-18-2019, 03:42 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Syd Thrift View Post
I do like the idea of dumping, say, half the TV breaks as we move into an era that isn't all about television anymore. I do think that baseball will be very, very slow to adopt this, as the US model is you show the game, then you have a 90 second break, then you show the game again. I agree that that's increasingly a less and less viable model (and frankly even in its heyday everyone at home used those 90 seconds as bathroom / food replenishment / looking up stats in the encyclopedia breaks) but, well, nobody ever accused baseball of not hanging onto traditions for traditions' sake...
I said this during the opening of this thread
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I really understand the desire to get the game shorter but they really should take 1 30sec commercial off each break that would make the game go faster.
Syd is very right, baseball is changing and us as fans need to understand that the strategy is changing, but MLB needs to create rules not to ruin the strategy's but keep them in check like the mound visit rule.
Forcing 3 batters to a pitcher seems like a bad rule that is not guaranteed to speed up the game.
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Old 12-18-2019, 04:00 PM   #64
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The #1 change they could do would be to actually enforce batters leaving the box between pitches. There's no reason they should need to undo and redo their glove, belt, cap, etc... every pitch. Even just shaving 2 second per pitch would be something like 8-10 minutes per game saved, maybe more. And 2 seconds is just to get back to what things were in the early 2000s, never mind back to the actual rulebook or to how things were back in the 90s or before.
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Old 12-18-2019, 06:55 PM   #65
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...
How are fans supposed to feel invested when their teams just want to milk them of their money and just be average, alot cheaper to watch on tv and save up for those playoff tickets if they ever come.
Another thing in fan investment is keeping well liked players. Here's the Andrew McCutchen example.

OK, so maybe his production wasn't a super deal for his salary anymore. Well, his leaving cost the Pirates 4000 in attendance per game. Enough to make money on McCutchen's salary even if he didn't play at all. And the guy would have cut the Pirates a break to stay in Pittsburgh. FFS, he named his kid Steel.

Similar arguments could have been made for the Rays and Longoria except the Rays have played so many games with the public and governments they've built to an unrecoverable level of apathy.
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Old 12-18-2019, 07:06 PM   #66
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People who feel strongly either way are greatly overrating how much this rule even matters
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Old 12-19-2019, 01:58 AM   #67
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Though the biggest problem with today's baseball of it being too much HR or K, is something they won't address because they think people like huge amounts of HR's.

What can they do about that? That's as much team/hitter philosophy as anything else. There's no rule to dictate that hitters should only strive for the "three true outcomes".


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Pinch hitters do not get 8 free swings from the box and do not need to warm up.
Do away with warm up pitches. Warm up in the bullpen...that's what it's for, right? And if the bullpen mound is different than the game mound...well make them the same.

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Old 12-19-2019, 10:10 AM   #68
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Quote:
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The #1 change they could do would be to actually enforce batters leaving the box between pitches. There's no reason they should need to undo and redo their glove, belt, cap, etc... every pitch. Even just shaving 2 second per pitch would be something like 8-10 minutes per game saved, maybe more. And 2 seconds is just to get back to what things were in the early 2000s, never mind back to the actual rulebook or to how things were back in the 90s or before.
The pitch clock would also enhance things. I have season tickets to a Triple-A team and games are much crisper and faster with the pitch clock. And I have never once seen them actually need to enforce the rule, so the argument that it would upset pitchers doesn't hold water. Just like the batters don't need to adjust themselves from head to toe between pitches, the pitchers don't have to march around the mound, fiddle with their belt, take their hat off and put it back on, and stare off into space for an additional five seconds. (Yes, Steve Trachsel, I'm looking at you.)
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Old 12-19-2019, 10:28 AM   #69
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They are ruining baseball with dumb rules like that just to speed up the game.

There are many ways they are ruining baseball... As if it hasn't been ruined already.
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Old 12-19-2019, 02:51 PM   #70
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What can they do about that? That's as much team/hitter philosophy as anything else. There's no rule to dictate that hitters should only strive for the "three true outcomes".
No rule
But it's the best way to win


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Do away with warm up pitches. Warm up in the bullpen...that's what it's for, right? And if the bullpen mound is different than the game mound...well make them the same.
Pretty hard, if not impossible, after 200 pitches have been thrown off it, for the game mound to be the same as the bullpen mound.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:29 PM   #71
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Quote:
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The #1 change they could do would be to actually enforce batters leaving the box between pitches. There's no reason they should need to undo and redo their glove, belt, cap, etc... every pitch. Even just shaving 2 second per pitch would be something like 8-10 minutes per game saved, maybe more. And 2 seconds is just to get back to what things were in the early 2000s, never mind back to the actual rulebook or to how things were back in the 90s or before.
This would be a seemingly simple change, it's true, and the whole walking around between pitches thing is something that was just plain not done like 30 years ago. There was even a guy who played for the Indians named Rick Manning who was called "The Human Rain Delay" because... he did the thing that basically every single batter is doing.

My main issue with doing this is that it puts a lot on the umpires, especially early in the season, and for all our talk about how ornery those guys are, they really *don't* like to make the guys they're adjudicating angry with them for little reason. That's a big part of why the 20 second delay of game rule is rarely if ever enforced (and when it is, it's usually enforced on the home team when, say, the big TV screen in the outfield starts counting everyone down) and I also think it's kind of behind how strike zones slowly shrink or expand over the course of both individual games as well as multiple seasons.

From their standpoint, this represents a thing you have to be mean about with pretty much every single batter on every single play, and there has to be *some* amount of give and take on that for when a guy actually needs to knock a rock out of his cleats or just get his head together after a high and inside fastball. Some umpires, given the choice between pissing off 18 guys who they have to interact with on a daily basis and 2 or 3 guys who are probably stationed across the country (who do write their paychecks, sure, but umpires aren't just in this to please their bosses), are going to heavily err on the side of giving the hitter a break, perhaps to the extent of non-enforcement.

IMO this is the sort of thing you probably need to introduce in the minors first and then, once the younger guys are all used to not taking their time, you bring it in after, say, 5 years or so.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:42 PM   #72
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Do away with warm up pitches. Warm up in the bullpen...that's what it's for, right? And if the bullpen mound is different than the game mound...well make them the same.
I mean, usually the ceremonial 8 pitches are seen on screen once a guy comes into the game. Nobody treats them as actual "warm up" pitches but more of a quick opportunity to test the mound conditions right before they pitch. I don't think that that is necessarily a thing that significantly adds to the length or detracts from the watchability of the game really at all. On the other hand, anything you do to try and get the pitcher in from the bullpen more quickly is going to be met with stalling tactics. That is, unfortunately, part of the game, and I don't think there's really any way to get rid of it... save, of course, giving managers fewer opportunities to do this.

I really don't feel *hugely* strong about this - my biggest issues with the game today are the time it takes and the dearth of balls put in play - but one of the benefits of requiring guys to pitch to 3 batters apiece is that, well, it's a nice, built-in way to have fewer relief breaks. Yes, it will mean the death of pure LOOGYs (not that they are *that* common anyway) and it will mean that pitchers with not-as-deep platoon splits will be more favored. *That* at least would if anything be a reversion to a way the game used to be played (and maybe in the offing will actually cause more pinch-hitting to happen; pinch hitting, especially for position players, is way down, almost necessarily so given that your average American League team with a 13 man pitching staff carries a backup catcher, a backup infielder, and a backup outfielder). I don't think strategy in and of itself is boring. Guys standing around for minutes at a time while a new pitcher is called in, on the other hand...

Baseball may be the sport that relies the most on tradition but in the olden days, before all this "tradition" became calcified, they did change the rules. You used to be able to foul off pitch after pitch after pitch without any consequence. Guys like John McGraw actually made a living out of wearing out pitchers by doing this for sometimes 20 pitches in a row. Then in 1900 (I think that's the year) the National League implemented a rule that said if you did that, it would be counted as a strike unless you already had 2 strikes against you. Way, way back in the early days of the game you used to be able to intentionally muff a pop fly in order to get an easy double play with a runner on first base. The infield fly rule put the kibosh on that. If anything, requiring a pitcher to pitch to at least 3 batters unless they're injured or ejected is small - if anything, it can be thought of as an extension to the existing rule that says that a pitcher has to pitch to at least one guy.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:45 PM   #73
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Nice previous post, only one quibble, I believe the human rain delay was Mike Hargrove.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:56 PM   #74
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Nice previous post, only one quibble, I believe the human rain delay was Mike Hargrove.
Oh riiiiight. Yeah, he even turned into a manager. I wonder if he told his teams to do what he did when he was playing?

Incidentally baseball-reference lists Rick Manning's nickname as "Archie". Now, bbref has taken the tack of including pretty much any nickname a player has been called by in, like, any major publication, which I for one am all for, but I suspect that people calling him "Archie" (after Peyton Manning's dad) was about as popular as people calling Jim Beattie "Zelmo" (after the ABA basketball player).
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Old 12-19-2019, 07:41 PM   #75
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I thought Mike Hargrove was "the human rain delay". Rick Manning, I thought was "Arch".


If the rule is not gonna come up hardly, why even bother with it? If a manager wants to waste a pitcher on one batter, that's his choice. Why mess with the strategy of the game? Is banning shifts next? Maybe you have to tell the pitcher where you want the ball so as to hit even more homeruns. I mean let's get real silly about it. Guess the rules guys need to justify getting paid.

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Old 12-19-2019, 10:07 PM   #76
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Rick Manning is only five years younger than Archie Manning, so if that was indeed a heavily used nickname it's pretty weird.
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Old 12-20-2019, 02:20 PM   #77
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I thought Mike Hargrove was "the human rain delay"...

Since you brought up Mike Hargrove...


I took a deep dive into watching some 80s baseball games on youtube the other day. In one of those games, I saw Hargrove do his little ritual before stepping in. You know what? He really didn't take all that long!



People used to howl that he would take forever back then, but relative today, the "human rain delay" seemed like a brief passing shower...

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Old 12-20-2019, 03:31 PM   #78
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Another thing about Mike Hargrove I seem to remember. He really didn't get his nickname from his little ritual, as you say, I seem to remember that he got it specifically because he was a guy who walked constantly. He would take so many pitches and foul some off before finally getting a hit or taking a walk. In every year he played he had more walks than strikeouts. 12 years. That's what made his AB's so long. Joey Votto can't even match Hargrove in BB/K ratio. Unreal.
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:36 PM   #79
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Another thing about Mike Hargrove I seem to remember. He really didn't get his nickname from his little ritual, as you say, I seem to remember that he got it specifically because he was a guy who walked constantly. He would take so many pitches and foul some off before finally getting a hit or taking a walk. In every year he played he had more walks than strikeouts. 12 years. That's what made his AB's so long. Joey Votto can't even match Hargrove in BB/K ratio. Unreal.

Imagine that... A guy who actually worked the count. I suppose he didn't care about his "launch angle"
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Old 12-20-2019, 05:38 PM   #80
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I always thought the best way to reduce the time of the game was to reduce number of commercial breaks.

This idea only works if the DH was universal.

Instead of changing sides after the 1st 3 outs just clear the bases.

I'd propose doing this with two sets of 3 then alternate like traditional baseball for last 3 innings.

It would reduce the # of commercial breaks from 17 to 9 or 16.67 Minutes

So this :

T1, B1, T2, B2, T3, B3, T4, B4, T5, B5, T6, B6, T7, B7, T8, B8, T9, B9


Becomes

T1 - T2 - T3, B1 - B2 - B3, T4 - T5 - T6, B4 - B5 - B6, T7, B7, T8, B8, T9, B9
This is just my opinion:
Something like this would not work in modern baseball seeing the starting pitchers would be more taxed leading to more reliever usage thus rending the way current rosters are made up useless. The rest between innings is good for pitchers as they can regain some of the energy they lost during their previous inning as well as being able to calm down after a stressful half inning they just pitched.
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