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Old 12-15-2019, 12:21 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by RubeBaker View Post
I enjoy watching the old ball games, too, especially from the 1980s. I think one key element of the game that is missing today is speed. Not just the speed of the games, but speed in general. Back in the 1980s when you had teams like the Cardinals, Reds, Expos, and Royals stealing hundreds of bases as a team, the game moved faster. It wasn't just watching guys trying to hit balls out of the park and striking out 200 times a year. The cookie-cutter, Astroturf parks might have been ugly compared to the retro parks with grass, but the game was much more fun to watch then IMHO.


I still think speed is a great weapon to have for your offense and you can still have speed without sacrificing power. Look at the 1989-1990 Oakland Athletics. They had lots of power, but they also had Rickey Henderson leading off and he could steal between 50-100 bases a season. You could go further into the late 1990's with the New York Yankees of 1998. Not one player on that team hit 30 or more home runs yet they had a great combination of speed and power, not to mention, patience.


I know it'll never happen, but I'd like to see the Kansas City Royals bring back AstroTurf to their ballpark and build that team on speed like they did during the late 1970s/early 1980s. Have a bunch of rabbits in the lineup who could steal 50 bases a season and a couple of bashers in the middle of the order. Other teams like Tampa Bay and Toronto could apply the same strategy, but I really like the Kansas City idea.
I know this is a total tangent, but I'd like to reply to this here...

I am of the personal opinion, based on nothing more than anecdotal observations, that current statistical analysis does not sufficiently calculate the added value of speed. It is difficult to find the true value of, for example, the distraction it causes a pitcher, making them more likely to throw a mistake pitch that the batter can take advantage of, or errors that are the result of rushed throws by defenders. I think all this leads to speed being undervalued, and I hope that moving forward there will be some team that finds a way to adjust their value assessment to account for this.

I agree with the belief that the most exciting play in baseball is the home run. Where I differ is that I think it is the inside the park home run
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Old 12-15-2019, 12:58 PM   #42
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Followed closely by the triple, the double steal, and any ground ball hit in the general direction of Juan Samuel...
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Old 12-15-2019, 01:32 PM   #43
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I know this is a total tangent, but I'd like to reply to this here...

I am of the personal opinion, based on nothing more than anecdotal observations, that current statistical analysis does not sufficiently calculate the added value of speed. It is difficult to find the true value of, for example, the distraction it causes a pitcher, making them more likely to throw a mistake pitch that the batter can take advantage of, or errors that are the result of rushed throws by defenders. I think all this leads to speed being undervalued, and I hope that moving forward there will be some team that finds a way to adjust their value assessment to account for this.
Of course, this has been studied. Most studies find that there is no real advantage to the batter in having a speedy runner on first.

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we find that with 0 outs there is no effect on the batter from a prolific base stealer starting on first base. With 1 out, there is a 24 point wOBA disadvantage to the batter, and with 2 outs, there is a 31 point advantage to the batter. Overall, that leaves around a 3 or 4 point negative effect on the batter. Given the relatively small sample sizes of this study, one would not want to reject the hypothesis that having a prolific base stealer on first base has no net effect on the batter’s performance.
https://mglbaseball.com/2014/09/13/d...or-the-batter/
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:26 PM   #44
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I always thought the best way to reduce the time of the game was to reduce number of commercial breaks.

This idea only works if the DH was universal.

Instead of changing sides after the 1st 3 outs just clear the bases.

I'd propose doing this with two sets of 3 then alternate like traditional baseball for last 3 innings.

It would reduce the # of commercial breaks from 17 to 9 or 16.67 Minutes

So this :

T1, B1, T2, B2, T3, B3, T4, B4, T5, B5, T6, B6, T7, B7, T8, B8, T9, B9


Becomes

T1 - T2 - T3, B1 - B2 - B3, T4 - T5 - T6, B4 - B5 - B6, T7, B7, T8, B8, T9, B9
By reducing the number of chances teams have to bring in relievers, they are literally reducing the number of spot breaks. Every single time a reliever comes in, he has to come in from the bullpen, take his ceremonial 8 warmup pitches, and in the meantime the manager is probably stalling a bit to make sure he's completely warmed up.

I honestly don't understand the "OMG they're ruining the GAAAME" stuff coming from this. It's obviously nostalgia, but it's nostalgia for a (to me) crappy thing that's been encroaching on the game since the early 90s, not, like, some time-honored tradition we're punting away. Like, yes, it used to be possible to bring in a guy for one batter in the 1920s. Nobody did that. Nobody used situational lefty relievers until, really, Tony LaRussa kicked it off with the A's in the late 80s.

Maybe this is a sign that I'm starting to get older, too, but I for one like little tweaks made to the game and I'd really love to see an overall kind of move back to something that feels a bit more like it was played in the 70s, 80, and early 90s. Granted, that's my childhood and we're always going to be nostalgic for our childhood, but games weren't as long and I feel like there was a more historical mix between offense and defense and between pitching and defense. Also, games were quite a bit shorter - in 1985 they were 2:45, compared to 3:10 last year.

Some of that, I have no idea how to fix - strikeout rates are insanely high now compared with even then and since they've been going up, up, up every year, practically, I don't know what measures the league can take to stop that - but some of it, like forcing teams not to use 6 damn relievers in a game unless they start really, really early or the pitching is really, really bad is a way to start.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:03 PM   #45
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Actually the first "LOOGY" was in 1960 and employed by Kansas City A's manager Bob Elliott.

https://tht.fangraphs.com/a-history-...oogy-part-one/
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:59 PM   #46
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Right. They used a guy named Leo Kiley for a. 20 appearances the entire year, and b. he still averaged more than an inning per appearance. Elliott also lasted one year as a manager and his ideas really weren't pushed forward by anyone else, so calling 1960 the "birthplace" of the LOOGY is more interesting as a source of trivia than pointing to where this trend actually started (and even at that I'd probably point to Bill Henry in '65 as the first "true" LOOGY).

The kinds of LOOGYs we think about today really came into being in the mid to late 80s (although not, as I thought, as a result of the A's, at least not exactly - Tony LaRussa was clearly an innovator in this and he left the LOOGY stamp in two places in '86 - the White Sox team he was fired from in June and the A's who hired him in July - both of which would start to use them going forward). There are individual guys used in LOOGY-ish ways like Ed Vandeberg and individual seasons with guys used like this, but it wasn't the staple of everyone's 'pen until the late 80s at least.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:14 PM   #47
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Right. They used a guy named Leo Kiley for a. 20 appearances the entire year, and b. he still averaged more than an inning per appearance. Elliott also lasted one year as a manager and his ideas really weren't pushed forward by anyone else, so calling 1960 the "birthplace" of the LOOGY is more interesting as a source of trivia than pointing to where this trend actually started (and even at that I'd probably point to Bill Henry in '65 as the first "true" LOOGY).

The kinds of LOOGYs we think about today really came into being in the mid to late 80s (although not, as I thought, as a result of the A's, at least not exactly - Tony LaRussa was clearly an innovator in this and he left the LOOGY stamp in two places in '86 - the White Sox team he was fired from in June and the A's who hired him in July - both of which would start to use them going forward). There are individual guys used in LOOGY-ish ways like Ed Vandeberg and individual seasons with guys used like this, but it wasn't the staple of everyone's 'pen until the late 80s at least.
You obviously did not read the article. It stated that there were three relievers in 1962 that qualified as such. And it was never the "staple of everyone's pen" during the time period of the article I referenced. It was more of a "slow burn" than any one defining moment, manager or year.

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Most Total LOOGY Seasons Observed, 1960-1986:

1. 10, 1986
2T. 8, 1970
2T. 8, 1971
4T. 7, 1972
4T. 7, 1976
4T. 7, 1984
4T. 6, 1985
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Old 12-16-2019, 07:34 PM   #48
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No need to repeat the verbage but I totally agree with Syd on this
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Old 12-16-2019, 07:50 PM   #49
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Syd got me thinking about differences in the game since our childhoods (mine was earlier than his), and 50 years ago weren't there usually 10 pitchers on a 25-man roster? No room for a LOOGY, and additional pinch hitters don't cause significant delays.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:33 AM   #50
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Syd got me thinking about differences in the game since our childhoods (mine was earlier than his), and 50 years ago weren't there usually 10 pitchers on a 25-man roster? No room for a LOOGY, and additional pinch hitters don't cause significant delays.
I definitely remember Earl Weaver advocating for a 9 man pitching staff (so a 4-5 man bullpen depending on the size of your rotation) because on any given day either 8 pitchers is too many or 12 is not enough.
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:02 PM   #51
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I think MLB should make a sister rule to the 3 batter minimum. No Pinch hitting for those 3 batters.
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:20 PM   #52
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Why?

So a team can put a new pitcher in facing the 8-hole and then force the other team to have their pitcher bat? What does that help? A pinch hitter doesn't take any extra time to warm-up.

You basically eliminate pinch hitters since a team could just change pitchers every three batters.
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Old 12-17-2019, 03:34 PM   #53
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I think MLB should make a sister rule to the 3 batter minimum. No Pinch hitting for those 3 batters.
Wouldn't a better rule be if team PH for batter then the Pitcher is allowed to be changed.
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Old 12-18-2019, 01:48 AM   #54
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Strange that MLB is trying to limit the use of pitchers at the same time they're expanding the roster to 26.

Un juice the ball, push the mound back a bit, raise the fences, cut the rosters to 24, pitchers will be able to pace themselves, some batters will find they can't hit HRs and start going for line drives. Fewer pitching changes, fewer home runs, fewer strike outs, more hits. Might even see a hit and run now and then.
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Old 12-18-2019, 09:44 AM   #55
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Strange, too, that they keep trying to speed up the game with these little tricks and all that happens is the attendance keeps dropping. How about fix that? The little tricks aren't working 'cause that's not what the problem is.
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Old 12-18-2019, 09:49 AM   #56
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I could see this going really poorly IRL. For one thing, I could see teams having relievers fake injuries so that they can get quicker pitching changes. If they did it all season long, people would notice, so they would wait for a key late-season game or a playoff game to employ it. For anyone who thinks that teams are above this, I would point towards the Astros' trash cans.

The other thing that I could see is a stream of pinch-hitters. If you know that a relief pitcher has to be left in for three hitters, you might as well send up some hitters who hit with the opposite hand because your opponent cannot make a corresponding move.

Here is a different idea. Let me know what you guys think. What if MLB decided instead that mid-inning relievers need to take all of their warm-up pitches in the bullpen and should be ready to pitch as soon as they come in? This could cut down the length of time that it takes to change pitchers substantially and could even discourage managers from making as many pitching changes since relief pitchers between innings would get warm-up time on the game mound while mid-inning relievers would only get warm-up time on the bullpen mound.
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:08 AM   #57
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I could see this going really poorly IRL. For one thing, I could see teams having relievers fake injuries so that they can get quicker pitching changes. If they did it all season long, people would notice, so they would wait for a key late-season game or a playoff game to employ it. For anyone who thinks that teams are above this, I would point towards the Astros' trash cans.
This

Quote:
Here is a different idea. Let me know what you guys think. What if MLB decided instead that mid-inning relievers need to take all of their warm-up pitches in the bullpen and should be ready to pitch as soon as they come in? This could cut down the length of time that it takes to change pitchers substantially and could even discourage managers from making as many pitching changes since relief pitchers between innings would get warm-up time on the game mound while mid-inning relievers would only get warm-up time on the bullpen mound.
Never fly
That'd put the players' health at risk
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Old 12-18-2019, 11:25 AM   #58
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Strange, too, that they keep trying to speed up the game with these little tricks and all that happens is the attendance keeps dropping. How about fix that? The little tricks aren't working 'cause that's not what the problem is.
Honesty as a Season Ticket Holder of a bad team, Ticket prices is the major issue for attendance.

My Tickets have gone up Every year since I became a STH in 2016, In 2017 It Made sense but a raise in 2018 and a little increase in 2019 doesn't.
Alot of causal fans would go more if tickets were cheaper when teams are bad, nobody wants to pay $26 CAD each for 500 Level (upper level at Skydome) to see Baltimore on a Sunday.

How are fans supposed to feel invested when their teams just want to milk them of their money and just be average, alot cheaper to watch on tv and save up for those playoff tickets if they ever come.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:05 PM   #59
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The easiest way to speed up the game is to realize that most people watching at home have these massive flat screen TVs. Devote 1/4 of the screen to non-stop silent advertising and eliminate an actual commercial break.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:16 PM   #60
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The easiest way to speed up the game is to realize that most people watching at home have these massive flat screen TVs. Devote 1/4 of the screen to non-stop silent advertising and eliminate an actual commercial break.
Yeah, as much as I hate PIP advertising, if it saves me 20 minutes of gametime, I'll take them cutting out once an inning for an ad.
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