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Old 07-13-2019, 06:22 PM   #1
fredbeene
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Is defense considered on every play

Is defenseive ratings considered on every play??
I would think they should be...
pitch speed, alignment, ratings. type of hitter all play a factor on each hit??

I ask because those that played stratomatic years ago recall a dice roll would be required to land on item that is designated for defensive play...
SS 7x......then you draw a card and consult a chart vs their rating....

Good for way back when......but OOTPB does it everyplay ....
I guess it would even look at a home run.....just over a short fence and gauge the range of outfielder to see if he catches it or not???
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:38 PM   #2
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It's not every play. Some hits are simply impossible for anyone to catch, so defense isn't checked there. But on any play that is not impossible, then we do check D, although it may only have a tiny chance if any to change a play result.
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:31 PM   #3
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A 430 foot home run would be an example when defense is not checked.


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Old 07-14-2019, 01:04 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Arnold View Post
It's not every play. Some hits are simply impossible for anyone to catch, so defense isn't checked there. But on any play that is not impossible, then we do check D, although it may only have a tiny chance if any to change a play result.


So defense only plays a very small role in the game (if any)?
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:59 AM   #5
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I think he's more talking about major league talent in the field. Most fielders make most makeable plays in the majors. If it were at the little league level, defense would be much more important. The guys with good defensive ratings will make maybe 1 more play out of 7 or 8 than a guy with a poor rating at that position. They are both equipped to play that position at the ML level. The guy with an excellent rating will make an outstanding play every couple games (on average).
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Old 07-14-2019, 06:43 AM   #6
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I do not have the numbers in front of me but I would think a poor fielding SS can cost your team 5 or more games during the season. May not sound like much but it could cost you a pennant. Some SS made a living just on their defense.
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Old 07-14-2019, 07:35 AM   #7
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A poor fielding SS isn't costing you 5 games unless your SS is Miguel Cabrera. You can't lose that much on defence unless you're playing a guy out of position. Even below average shortstops will cost you at most 1 win defensively, and if they're playing that much at SS it's because their bat is so good that you're coming out ahead at the end of the day. Derek Jeter's a good example of this - in 2007 he had -18 UZR, but he was still worth 3.6 WAR thanks to his 125 wRC+. He was a top 8 SS that year despite the horrible defensive numbers.

As for OOTP...I wouldn't ignore defence, as it clearly has a bigger impact than some posters in this thread are suggesting. Wouldn't get guys who can field at the expense of their bats, but I also wouldn't ignore it either.

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Old 07-14-2019, 08:07 AM   #8
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I thought we were talking about defense, not some combination of offense/defense/leadership/morale, etc..
Talking about defense and assuming the other factors are the same. According to article at FanGraphs, a great defensive SS will save you about 15 runs compared to an average defensive SS. A poor defensive SS will cost you about 15 runs compared to an average defensive SS. So the difference between a great defensive SS and a poor defensive SS is about 30 runs, not taking in account their offense, etc..
Bottom line, if you have a poor defensive SS, he better hit pretty darn good or you better be looking for a replacement.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePretender View Post
A poor fielding SS isn't costing you 5 games unless your SS is Miguel Cabrera. You can't lose that much on defence unless you're playing a guy out of position. Even below average shortstops will cost you at most 1 win defensively, and if they're playing that much at SS it's because their bat is so good that you're coming out ahead at the end of the day. Derek Jeter's a good example of this - in 2007 he had -18 UZR, but he was still worth 3.6 WAR thanks to his 125 wRC+. He was a top 8 SS that year despite the horrible defensive numbers.

As for OOTP...I wouldn't ignore defence, as it clearly has a bigger impact than some posters in this thread are suggesting. Wouldn't get guys who can field at the expense of their bats, but I also wouldn't ignore it either.
The only caution I would express with this logic is it does not take into account sequencing and extra pitches. I completely agree that five wins is extreme, but one is also probably too conservative. When you have a SS (or any fielder) that is awful miss a play that most would make, you are adding 3-5 pitches to what your staff has to cover each night. If you replace Andrelton Simmons with the worst starting SS in MLB, those numbers add up. Let’s say Simmons makes one play every other game that the worst SS (legit SS, not Miggy) would make, that creates the need for ~325 extra pitches (4 pitches per PA), or ~81 plate appearances. You are covering an additional ~20 innings over the course of the season, which is 33% of a RP. Not significant, I know, but not irrelevant.

Also, you are creating 81 additional opportunities for something bad to happen. The missed play or error has obviously led (at a minimum) to a base runner being on first base - maybe worse than that - and you’re also giving up additional at-bats. Getting outs really does matter because of the cascade effect.

I agree that the offensive production will always outweigh defense, but also believe a great defensive player really does impact the game, even in OOTP.
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Old 07-14-2019, 05:23 PM   #10
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Replacing Simmons with a terrible fielder doesn't change the fact that the SS himself isn't costing you more than one game. You're talking about something else entirely. And if he is, likely his bat is so amazing that he's winning you more games with his bat than he costs you with the gloves. It if he's legitimately that had he's moved off the position.

Either way it's extremely unlikely a guy costs you two wins defensively at SS.
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePretender View Post
Replacing Simmons with a terrible fielder doesn't change the fact that the SS himself isn't costing you more than one game. You're talking about something else entirely. And if he is, likely his bat is so amazing that he's winning you more games with his bat than he costs you with the gloves. It if he's legitimately that had he's moved off the position.

Either way it's extremely unlikely a guy costs you two wins defensively at SS.
At least you’re reasonably considering what others are pointing out.

No need for a reasonable discussion here. Enjoy.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:18 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dbl4868 View Post
So defense only plays a very small role in the game (if any)?
Matt's words were "it may only have a tiny chance if any to change a play result." (italics mine)

I think I read that very differently than you did. The may in that sentence to me indicates that while on some plays, as he mentioned, there is no chance for defense to influence the play, on some other plays there might only be a very tiny chance for defense to have an influence. That isn't to say that there aren't other plays where defense can play a larger role.
I don't mean to speak for Matt, and I could be wrong, but I suspect you misunderstood what he was saying here.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdWatcher View Post
Matt's words were "it may only have a tiny chance if any to change a play result." (italics mine)

I think I read that very differently than you did. The may in that sentence to me indicates that while on some plays, as he mentioned, there is no chance for defense to influence the play, on some other plays there might only be a very tiny chance for defense to have an influence. That isn't to say that there aren't other plays where defense can play a larger role.
I don't mean to speak for Matt, and I could be wrong, but I suspect you misunderstood what he was saying here.
This is close to the way I read it and have experienced it, but I take it even a step further, perhaps. Impossible plays do not get a defense check; every other play gets the check, even if the possibility of effect is miniscule.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:50 PM   #14
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This is close to the way I read it and have experienced it, but I take it even a step further, perhaps. Impossible plays do not get a defense check; every other play gets the check, even if the possibility of effect is miniscule.
Right, exactly how I took it.
I just didn't state it as succinctly as you did.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
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This is close to the way I read it and have experienced it, but I take it even a step further, perhaps. Impossible plays do not get a defense check; every other play gets the check, even if the possibility of effect is miniscule.
Yep. I mean, a routine ball to SS even the worst fielder is still making that play, so there's a tiny chance that one turns into an error. A tough ball where the guy has to range over and maybe dive for it obviously defense is a much bigger effect on that play.

We try to mimic real life. Top SS could be +20 zr. Worst is probably -10. Thus best to worst is in the range of 3 wins directly due to D, maybe more if you count stopped rallies.
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Yep. I mean, a routine ball to SS even the worst fielder is still making that play, so there's a tiny chance that one turns into an error. A tough ball where the guy has to range over and maybe dive for it obviously defense is a much bigger effect on that play.

We try to mimic real life. Top SS could be +20 zr. Worst is probably -10. Thus best to worst is in the range of 3 wins directly due to D, maybe more if you count stopped rallies.
Matt, what effect does the Settings > Troubleshooting> Engine Config
have on defense?... see the screenshot for the location of these settings... it is found on the lower left at the bottom of the screen "Settings".

Will Defensive Influence setting increase the importance of a defense in the game engine?

I raised the Defensive Influence setting to 125 hoping to make a player's defense more important in the game results.

Is this how it works?
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Matt, what effect does the Settings > Troubleshooting> Engine Config
have on defense?... see the screenshot for the location of these settings... it is found on the lower left at the bottom of the screen "Settings".

Will Defensive Influence setting increase the importance of a defense in the game engine?

I raised the Defensive Influence setting to 125 hoping to make a player's defense more important in the game results.

Is this how it works?
This is exactly what I do in the engine.cfg, EC. The only problematic issue I've encountered is when hitting or breaking the 200 mark. In the past, at least, it returned unexpected results, e.g. your error categories. Have you found those increases have effectively increased the number of errors?
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:29 PM   #18
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This is exactly what I do in the engine.cfg, EC. The only problematic issue I've encountered is when hitting or breaking the 200 mark. In the past, at least, it returned unexpected results, e.g. your error categories. Have you found those increases have effectively increased the number of errors?
Yes, the control of errors works well... the game always seems to have modern day fielding average as default... I have lowered the team FA's from .980 to the .950s.

The team double play results work well, too.

I always play 1950-style baseball and want statistical results to be similar to that era.

For defense, the League Modifiers on the Game Settings, League Totals' screen don't seem to work well... but it could be a case of my ignorance as to how they work and interact with the Engine Config File settings.

However, I have found the League Modifiers for Offense work very well.
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