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Old 02-19-2020, 02:22 PM   #401
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Astros players (and owner) should just shut their ****ing mouths. The more they pop off the more shady and moronic they sound. POS like Reddick, McCullers and Correa can suck one and choke on it.

I hate the part of the game of beaning people on purpose. I don't want to watch WWE. But these guys really don't deserve any type of sympathy if that happens to them.
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:01 PM   #402
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Wonder if Manfred should say he's given it some thought and put it to a vote to vacate the 2017 and 2018 titles (presuming the Red Sox info is pretty substantial). 2/3 of the MLB owners and/or 2/3 of MLBPA members agree to vacate, then vacate those titles.
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:19 PM   #403
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Had Manfred had the foresight and stones, he would've taken the attitude of giving the middle finger to both the MLBPA and the owners, and taken whatever measures - such as suspension - "for the integrity of the game," and he instantly would've had both the public and the media on his side.

That said, barring something unusual or something new coming out, the ship for punishing players has sailed. Same for vacating the 2017 title. But I just wonder where Manfred goes from here. I also wonder if Manfred and MLBPA might be sorta on the same side right now from the perspective of "how do we deal with this sh*tshow?" And I'd think the MLBPA would be strongly advocating that the Astros' players either change their tune and appear contrite, or at least just shut up. But so far it seems that nobody is serious about damage control.

At any rate, if you were Manfred right now and couldn't go back in time - meaning, primarily, you can't nullify immunity agreements - what steps would you take?
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:24 PM   #404
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Had Manfred had the foresight and stones, he would've taken the attitude of giving the middle finger to both the MLBPA and the owners, and taken whatever measures - such as suspension - "for the integrity of the game," and he instantly would've had both the public and the media on his side.

That said, barring something unusual or something new coming out, the ship for punishing players has sailed. Same for vacating the 2017 title. But I just wonder where Manfred goes from here. I also wonder if Manfred and MLBPA might be sorta on the same side right now from the perspective of "how do we deal with this sh*tshow?" And I'd think the MLBPA would be strongly advocating that the Astros' players either change their tune and appear contrite, or at least just shut up. But so far it seems that nobody is serious about damage control.

At any rate, if you were Manfred right now and couldn't go back in time - meaning, primarily, you can't nullify immunity agreements - what steps would you take?

I'd resign.
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:34 PM   #405
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I'd resign.
Haha

I'll rephrase:

At any rate, if you were Manfred right now and couldn't go back in time - meaning, primarily, you can't nullify immunity agreements - what realistic steps would you take?
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:39 PM   #406
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So, if the Astros legitimately win the WS in 2020, what's the reaction going to be like?

Will accusations of cheating come flooding out again?

Will fans still believe it's tainted, even with no proof of cheating?

This is still a good team, and certainly capable of winning again. Be interesting to see the reaction.
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:46 PM   #407
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So, if the Astros legitimately win the WS in 2020, what's the reaction going to be like?

Will accusations of cheating come flooding out again?

Will fans still believe it's tainted, even with no proof of cheating?

Undeniably some would claim more cheating
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:57 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by thehef View Post
Haha

I'll rephrase:

At any rate, if you were Manfred right now and couldn't go back in time - meaning, primarily, you can't nullify immunity agreements - what realistic steps would you take?
Admit I blew it.

I'd say something along the lines of "We wanted to know exactly what happened so that we could prevent it in the future. We prioritized information. But in retrospect, we should have put more emphasis on maintaining the integrity of the season, the league and the game. To make sure we maintain the perception of a level playing field to all onlookers and those employed in our league. And foremost, that anyone who would damage that perception would face discipline that would prevent anyone from ever considering taking similar liberties."

"We failed. And I will take full blame for my part in not making sure that was the utmost consideration in our investigation. No matter how sound we thought our reasoning was, it has become obviously clear by reactions from our fans, players & others around the league that we dropped the ball on this one. "

"I know the MLBPA maintains this is a violation that can't be penalized. But I urge them to listen to their own members, their fans, our paying customers and their own conscience. Then work with us so together we can take cheating out of our game. To hold ourselves to a higher standard of fair play. And show that all parties in our game, whether on the field, in the dugout, in our front offices, the league offices or the owner's box, will no longer further tolerate anyone compromising fair competition and integrity in America's pastime."
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Old 02-19-2020, 05:28 PM   #409
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Admit I blew it.

I'd say something along the lines of "We wanted to know exactly what happened so that we could prevent it in the future. We prioritized information. But in retrospect, we should have put more emphasis on maintaining the integrity of the season, the league and the game. To make sure we maintain the perception of a level playing field to all onlookers and those employed in our league. And foremost, that anyone who would damage that perception would face discipline that would prevent anyone from ever considering taking similar liberties."

"We failed. And I will take full blame for my part in not making sure that was the utmost consideration in our investigation. No matter how sound we thought our reasoning was, it has become obviously clear by reactions from our fans, players & others around the league that we dropped the ball on this one. "

"I know the MLBPA maintains this is a violation that can't be penalized. But I urge them to listen to their own members, their fans, our paying customers and their own conscience. Then work with us so together we can take cheating out of our game. To hold ourselves to a higher standard of fair play. And show that all parties in our game, whether on the field, in the dugout, in our front offices, the league offices or the owner's box, will no longer further tolerate anyone compromising fair competition and integrity in America's pastime."
You should send that to Manfred
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:15 PM   #410
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You should really all get it out of your heads that any titles will be vacated. That would leave a permanent scar on the game that is in nobody's interest, just like that dismal '94 season, and who won that World Seri- oh, right.

Much like half the crowd will vote at least some steroid sluggers into the Hall of Fame now, this will have grass grown over it in ten, five, or even three years.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:38 PM   #411
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Manfred is losing bad in the court of public opinion.

Had he pushed against the union for punishment, wouldn't the union have lost big time in the court of public opinion? And maybe decided its greater duty was to the innocent.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:47 PM   #412
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Manfred works for the owners
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:16 PM   #413
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Positive public opinion is what makes the owners money.
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:42 PM   #414
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You should really all get it out of your heads that any titles will be vacated. That would leave a permanent scar on the game that is in nobody's interest, just like that dismal '94 season, and who won that World Seri- oh, right.
I don't know that anybody here is seriously thinking that vacating a title is still an option. Some think it should have been an option... And some, including me, think that an asterisk should still be considered...

Regardless, this is going horribly for Manfred. He may never admit it, but I'm sure he's having second thoughts about some elements of both the punishments given, and the PR aspect since that point in time...
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:47 PM   #415
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Positive public opinion is what makes the owners money.
I suspect the owners think that all this talk about the BlackStros' cheating is still talk about baseball, and thus ultimately good for the financial aspect of the game, which now has a new villain team, and new villain players. And villains sell. Time will tell...
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:54 PM   #416
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So, if the Astros legitimately win the WS in 2020, what's the reaction going to be like?

Will accusations of cheating come flooding out again?

Will fans still believe it's tainted, even with no proof of cheating?

This is still a good team, and certainly capable of winning again. Be interesting to see the reaction.
I would probably think it's legit as I think there will be too many eyes on what they do this season. But that's also why I think they will fail.
How do we know how good the Astros really are?
I find it hard to believe the Astros cheated in 17, won the world series and just stopped. I find it more likely they tried other ways of cheating.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:07 PM   #417
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You should really all get it out of your heads that any titles will be vacated. That would leave a permanent scar on the game that is in nobody's interest, just like that dismal '94 season, and who won that World Seri- oh, right.

Much like half the crowd will vote at least some steroid sluggers into the Hall of Fame now, this will have grass grown over it in ten, five, or even three years.
If the players had offered honest apologies or even offered to return the championship, they may have saved some respect. But now as long as they live even their peers are gonna consider them to be phony champions. The game will move on and so will they but I think they will be silent outcasts. Not as much for the cheating but more so because they basically got away with it. Most everyone outside of Houston fans will consider the championship tainted.
That will be an endless struggle for them to prove wrong. I'm not sure if they can and maybe that is their punishment.
On the other hand it may get more people watching baseball this year. Or at least the Astros.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:08 PM   #418
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I suspect the owners think that all this talk about the BlackStros' cheating is still talk about baseball, and thus ultimately good for the financial aspect of the game, which now has a new villain team, and new villain players. And villains sell. Time will tell...
I have multiple friends that said why would they bother watching baseball anymore. Granted, they rarely watched outside of the postseason, so take it for what it's worth. Remains to be seen if they remember to be mad come October also
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:00 AM   #419
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I suspect the owners think that all this talk about the BlackStros' cheating is still talk about baseball, and thus ultimately good for the financial aspect of the game, which now has a new villain team, and new villain players. And villains sell. Time will tell...
I'm sure that for a while the Astros will sell extra tickets on the road.
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Old 02-20-2020, 01:09 AM   #420
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Admit I blew it.
LOL. Easy for you to give that advice.
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