Joe Mauer...HOF yay, or nay?

[AnotherAlias]

What's your opinion?

[TGH-Adfabre]

Monkey Rodeo because he is not there yet but could be.

[Cobra Mgr]

As of now, no. But the choices are terrible. I don;t say there is zero chance. And I don't think he needs to play another decade and a half before I say yes.

IMO, when you factor in the era he is playing in, he doesn't have enough power. Maybe in the 30's he would look better. But not in this century.

[mirrf]

2000 hits and a .300 average for primarily a catcher, I would lean yes. He's in the top 15 catchers of all time, arguably in the top 10.

He's comparable to Buster Posey. Sure, Posey is better, but they are in the same ballpark.

[Airdrop01]

Ummmm.... he hasn’t been a catcher for a long time. Like 5 years.

And it’s the Hall of Fame. Not the Hall of Pretty Good.

No.

[Cod]

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Ummmm.... he hasn’t been a catcher for a long time. Like 5 years.

And it’s the Hall of Fame. Not the Hall of Pretty Good.

No.

This.

[stiffy]

His run from 2005 through 2013 was too dominant for him not to get in IMO. Though if he played any position other than catcher, that's probably not the case.

His JAWS is 46.9 while the average HOF catcher's is 44.

[Cobra Mgr]

According to baseball-reference, Mauer has 889 starts at C & 809 @ 1B/DH/OF. He hasn't been behind the plate since 2013. Not logged 100+ starts @ C since 2010. Looking at his numbers exclusively thru the prism of a catcher distorts the reality of his legitimacy as a HOF.

[magnet 2.0]

Originally Posted by stiffy

His run from 2005 through 2013 was too dominant for him not to get in IMO. Though if he played any position other than catcher, that's probably not the case.

His JAWS is 46.9 while the average HOF catcher's is 44.

He's the #7 catcher of all-time by JAWS, and that doesn't take into account his time at 1B.

[Airdrop01]

Originally Posted by magnet 2.0

He's the #7 catcher of all-time by JAWS, and that doesn't take into account his time at 1B.

I don’t even know what JAWS is, if it isn’t a giant man eating shark that requires a bigger boat. But if what you say is true, then it must be contrived by the monkey step child of the lizard child of the troglodyte who came up with WAR.

No one who knows anything about actual baseball, versus computer nerd never played after high school if he’s lucky statheads, would put Joe Mauer anywhere near #7 in all time catchers.

EDIT: I googled it. Apparently this tool created his “tool to evaluate HOF” out of his vast expertise and experience in...wait for it.... NOT playing baseball. https://us.macmillan.com/author/jayjaffe/

[Airdrop01]

I’ve got a metric for Jay Jaffe: DORKS. Damned Old Recalcitrants Killing Sports.

Jay is off the charts in this metric. He’s like, ya know, the best of all the weirdo baseball writers. He’s beating the hell out of George Will, Bill James. Not to mention actual baseball minds. I can only imagine what Thurman Munson would say to Jay. Lol.

Note you can buy Jay’s musings for a cool $26. Not to be confused with the Jay Jaffe who actually did play baseball at USC. He gives inspirational speeches, about overcoming cancer, etc. as opposed to making up stats and schilling snake oil.

[Airdrop01]

.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

I don’t even know what JAWS is, if it isn’t a giant man eating shark that requires a bigger boat. But if what you say is true, then it must be contrived by the monkey step child of the lizard child of the troglodyte who came up with WAR.

No one who knows anything about actual baseball, versus computer nerd never played after high school if he’s lucky statheads, would put Joe Mauer anywhere near #7 in all time catchers.

EDIT: I googled it. Apparently this tool created his “tool to evaluate HOF” out of his vast expertise and experience in...wait for it.... NOT playing baseball. https://us.macmillan.com/author/jayjaffe/

Classic gatekeeper post. Guess I'll stop being a baseball fan, didn't know the rule of having to have played it to have an opinion.

[Airdrop01]

Everyone gets an opinion, bro. Citing a made up stat, subjective in nature anyway (just because it’s a number doesn’t mean it’s not subjective, any more than the 5s or whatever we write on paper for players’ skills) made up by a guy who has no idea what it is like to catch 130 games in 9 months, for the purpose of proving the worthiness of an opinion, is where I must point out the absurdity of the argument.

Everyone still gets an opinion. But that means everyone does. Tell me why Mauer is the seventh (!!!!) best catcher of ALL TIME. Don’t cite a subjective made up number...especially from a guy like THAT, and say ipso facto he’s the seventh best catcher in the history of Baseball.

The dude is a writer, supposedly, and the best he can do is a number...which he MADE UP.... for his argument? That’s why I mock him.

[TheMaus2]

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Everyone gets an opinion, bro. Citing a made up stat, subjective in nature anyway (just because it’s a number doesn’t mean it’s not subjective, any more than the 5s or whatever we write on paper for players’ skills) made up by a guy who has no idea what it is like to catch 130 games in 9 months, for the purpose of proving the worthiness of an opinion, is where I must point out the absurdity of the argument.

Everyone still gets an opinion. But that means everyone does. Tell me why Mauer is the seventh (!!!!) best catcher of ALL TIME. Don’t cite a subjective made up number...especially from a guy like THAT, and say ipso facto he’s the seventh best catcher in the history of Baseball.

The dude is a writer, supposedly, and the best he can do is a number...which he MADE UP.... for his argument? That’s why I mock him.

batting average is a made up stat, old man

[Splitter24]

Joe Mauer: OPS+ 126, oWAR 52.9, dWAR 3.4, 3 Gold Gloves, 6-time All Star, 1 MVP

Joe Torre: OPS+ 129, oWAR 59.5, dWAR -0.3, 1 Gold Glove, 9-time All Star, 1 MVP

As an aside, Mauer's dWAR in his 5 100+ game seasons as a catcher was 2.7. Torre's dWAR in his 5 100+ game seasons as a catcher was 4.0.

Aside #2: I'm not a fan of WAR as a stat (and especially as a Hall of Fame argument) but include it only because I know a lot of people are.


The similarities in OPS+, WAR, moving from catcher to a corner infield position, awards, you name it between two the two Joes is pretty uncanny. No one argued too strongly for Torre's HoF candidacy; his voting based on his playing career tended to hover around 10-15% every year. They both have HoF arguments based on their playing careers. Torre got in on the strength of his lifetime body of work. I'm going to guess even if Mauer were to get a bit more support, it probably won't be enough if Torre's voting history as a player is any indication.

[Cobra Mgr]

This gets back into how sabermetrics has damaged baseball. People sight them as facts. And they have absolutely no idea what went into creating them. Done zero investigating as to how it is compiled, what is the reasoning behind it, the credentials of the one who came up with it. If you can't explain it, how can you put faith in it? But people recite it in debates as if it is a bible verse quoted from the divine and act like it puts a period at the end of the discussion. They are calculations based on the OPINION of whoever came up with the ratings.

[TheMaus2]

10th on the Career WAR ranking for C, 3 batting titles, 3 GGs, 6 AS, 5 SS and an MVP award on a team that doesn't have many greats that I can remember? He's getting in, but maybe in a later ballot.

[Jeffy25]

I'd like another 10 rWAR or so.

Catchers aren't appreciated enough, in general. But he has a lot going for him in regards to the Hall.

If he can get another 3 rWAR year this year, 2 next year, 2 in 2020, and then string together some 1-2 rWAR years over the following years, then yes.

If he ended his career today, no, he'd be short.

I'm not meaning WAR as the all inclusive stat. It's just a good, quick snapshot.

Technically, he's still a catcher (played most of his career there), but I don't know that he belongs above Brian Downing and Gabby Hartnett at this moment as a catcher all-time. He's at least near them.

In the end, he probably ends around Ted Simmons, and if he played long enough, near Fisk.

He won't be passing up Bench, Carter, Pudge, Berra. But that's not meaning he can't be a Hall of Famer either.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Everyone gets an opinion, bro. Citing a made up stat, subjective in nature anyway (just because it’s a number doesn’t mean it’s not subjective, any more than the 5s or whatever we write on paper for players’ skills) made up by a guy who has no idea what it is like to catch 130 games in 9 months, for the purpose of proving the worthiness of an opinion, is where I must point out the absurdity of the argument.

Everyone still gets an opinion. But that means everyone does. Tell me why Mauer is the seventh (!!!!) best catcher of ALL TIME. Don’t cite a subjective made up number...especially from a guy like THAT, and say ipso facto he’s the seventh best catcher in the history of Baseball.

The dude is a writer, supposedly, and the best he can do is a number...which he MADE UP.... for his argument? That’s why I mock him.

1. Your opinion isn't disqualified because you are a journalist and statistician. Every front office in baseball is ran by numbers guys that understands and knows the game. Are you going to call Luhnow and Epstein's opinions wrong because they didn't play the sport?

The idea that you can be disqualified from an understanding of something due to a lack of physical experience with it is squashed everywhere else in life, but a few people in baseball seem to allow it ring through without cause. Every single person, including Jaffe, who writes on the sport has played it, loves it, and understands it. Just because he didn't play minor league baseball or whatever level you would require to consider him a relevant expert is ridiculous.

2. JAWS, WAR, and these other 'subjective' stats were created with great insight, vetted information, detailed analysis, and years of thought experiment. And they are still only value added, snap shot numbers. They don't have to be all inclusive and absolute. Nobody walks around saying, well, his WAR is this, so that's it. It's a great starting place. Not the ending place (for discussions).

3. Usually when people are against these stats, they are the individuals who have zero clue how the stats are computed and figured out. WAR and JAWS are both incredibly easy and simplistic, and make a ton of sense. They also correlate to real wins remarkably well. Much better than other made up stats, like batting average.

4. We use statistics and analysis because our brains are giant fail factories. Our memories incredibly flawed, and in a sport with 750 full time players in it each year, it's easy to neglect some players, divisions, or even leagues and not realize what players are doing. This keeps the players on the same level playing field and allows us to measure them and compare them to each other. If you are a Yankee fan, I doubt you are paying any attention to what a player on the Rockies is doing unless you think you are trading for him or really watch all 30 teams really well. It doesn't allow you to objectively measure those players. So we use statistics, and advanced statistics are going to be vastly superior for this purpose.

5. You are also like 10 years too late to be complaining about this stuff. It's long been accepted. And the front offices are ran by people much smarter than all of us.

6. Why don't you give us your list of top 10 catchers of all time, and we can all discuss where Mauer fits on that list (assuming he continues to qualify as a catcher)?