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Old 03-28-2017, 02:09 PM   #1
BigCity
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Thoughts on League Creation

I'm not sure how many of you share this dilemma with me, but my biggest problem over the years of playing OOTP is keeping my interest in a league over the long haul.

I love coming up with an idea for a fictional league, love putting together all the details; love “setting things up”. Playing out the league is exciting at first, but the first warning sign to me that my interest is waning is not being able to share and discuss the events of the league with like minded followers.

Sure, I’ve sometimes tried to accumulate the details of the league and enter that information into the Dynasty Forum, but to be fair, all you folks have your own leagues and interests (and time or lack thereof) and, at best, read over the posts with little or no comment. I do the same.

Thus, over the progressive seasons, the excitement fades, and eventually I start thinking of my next creation.

I admire some of you; Eugene Church, NYY #23, Westheim, and many others; who put their head down and keep forging ahead no matter the response or lack thereof. You are truly the type of guys that I would like working with me if I had a do-or-die project to complete.

Alas; although I have some great ideas to present a league’s results (and wish I could express those "newspaper" ideas clearly to the OOTP owners), I’m not the “head down and charge” type of guy that can keep going even when no one is listening.

That said, it has taken me many years and many leagues to understand how I could possibly create a league that would have a better chance of surviving my “gradual diluted interest” as the seasons go on.

In my latest theory, I think the lack of “compatriots” to share the adventure is also linked to the fact that all these fictional leagues are, well, “not real”. In being “not real” the teams and the players have no connection to ME, the person that created them.

There’s an important step in becoming one with your creation – the teams and players have to mean something to you. One can create players that are friends and family, and that “connection” might keep interest. Or one can create team and locations that mean something in his/her life.

This is where a light bulb went off in my head a couple years ago.

In my now 70 years of life, I have lived a number of places. Fourteen (14) specific places in 6 different communities (I’m sure many of you have a much longer list). I wondered if I could create a team from those 14 locations that would tie me to the memories of living my life during that time.

At the same time, I needed to create these teams without giving away their locations (for the readers benefit) which meant not using community names (not that 6 teams was really enough for a long term league anyway)… so I decided to use street names that I either lived on or were in close proximity to where I lived. That would give me 14 teams I could eventually expand the league into, with the possibility of adding 2 more if I actually move again. In addition, each 10 years (or with each new team addition) I would rename a new player on each team to a name that reminded me of the time.

Example:
Start with the first 6 locations I lived. The names of the streets were (1) Fulton, (2) Elmwood, (3) Murray Hill, (4) Emery Park, (5) Lakeshore, and (6) Westpoint. In the case of #1, I named the team the Fulton City Angels (because I lived across the street from a church), and the first “home-spun” player on the team was “Rocco Valentino” (the church was named St. Rocco’s and my father’s middle name was Valentino). This would result in 6 teams with 6 “personalized” players.


The players chosen initially and/or as new players 10 years later would be a 4 or 5 star player to hopefully insure they wouldn’t be drop-outs. I would start the league in 1947 (year I was born) with an initial 6 teams, and expand over time to 14 teams – basing the expansions on when the MLB expanded (1961- 6 to 8 teams, 1962- 8 to 10 teams, 2 divisions, 1969- 10 to 12 teams, 1977- 12 to 14 teams). Anything beyond that would be determined if I got that far.

As it has turned out, I’ve played this league a lot slower than I thought I would. When I have a need to play OOTP a lot, I create a league and run off months or seasons – but when I play this league, I never play more than a week at a time. I read game results, I take notes, and I write short stories.

I’m currently in 1950 and enjoying the hell out of it

If there is a lesson to be learned in this, I would suggest it is to slow down your playing time and enjoy the details. Let your imagination fill in the gaps, and when something happens where you would normally blame a shortcoming of the game, intertwine it into your fictional story.


So far this is working for me; two years (3 seasons) and I'm still going strong...




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Old 03-28-2017, 04:34 PM   #2
Sizeman21
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Hey Big City. I have had similar dilemmas like you with recent OOTP games. I only started playing on OOTP 15 but I really had a hard time sticking to a league after I create it. I love the customization you have on the game but I find it hard to stick to a league if I feel no connection to any teams or players or whatever. So for awhile, I just simmed seasons of a regular MLB dynasty to see what happens in the future with top prospects and new teams if expansion happens.

But recently I have created my own fictional nation called Arrington with almost 200 cities ranging from a 1 million people to a mere hundred. I love the creative part of OOTP. Although the code is annoying to deal with and tasking, the payoff is great and I have totally connected to this nation. I created a history of the island and a brief history of baseball on the island. My starting date will be 1861.

Well, I was just giving you my two cents on your topic you brought up on the forums. Thanks for sharing. Hope to see you here more often!
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:33 PM   #3
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Thanks for the compliment, and thank you for sharing your thoughts as well. It's funny, but at times I find myself admiring the worlds created by Eugene Church, DreamTeams and others who have created their own world and seem so dedicated to their world. I think I've been lucky too to find a league that I enjoy playing, and over time became invested in my world.

I'm glad that you have been able to do that too. I really like your advice about slowing down, enjoying it, and digesting it. I've found the number one thing that can kill a league for me is going too fast.

I hope that you are able to keep your league going for many more seasons!
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:04 PM   #4
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The other suggestion for dynasties is do/write what you enjoy. There will be some people that like the same style you have. And your enjoyment comes out in your writing. I enjoy EC's fictional world league. But I'm not a fan of his Southern Association. But his writing is a great follow.

And as Big City says do your dynasty at your pace. I learned that from the Metro League. And from trying to write in online leagues. It becomes work when you MUST get an article done in two day or three days. But when you can do it at your leisure it is fun.

I'm trying my hand at a dynasty this time. And I have a plan for several years in advance. So I should be able to at least get that much done.

If I start a second dynasty, i'll do it Bill James style. Just sim several hundred years. And go back through the Almanacs and find interesting stories.
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Old 03-29-2017, 05:21 PM   #5
BigCity
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The "story" is the thing that counts.

After years of trying to figure out how to best publish league results so as to interest the reader, it becomes obvious that wrapping an interesting story around what's happening in the league is what really captures the readers.

We can post statistics till the sky turns green, but it still doesn't capture the interest of the reader any more than his own statistics in his own league.

Been there and done that more times than I can count.

If you really want to capture a following, you have to tell a story.

This is what I would like to see OOTP do next. Find a way to expand each part of the season in such a way as to tell a story, not just add up numbers. Alas; but I also know storytelling is a human effort, not a computer effort.... at least for now.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCity View Post
The "story" is the thing that counts.

After years of trying to figure out how to best publish league results so as to interest the reader, it becomes obvious that wrapping an interesting story around what's happening in the league is what really captures the readers.

We can post statistics till the sky turns green, but it still doesn't capture the interest of the reader any more than his own statistics in his own league.

Been there and done that more times than I can count.

If you really want to capture a following, you have to tell a story.

This is what I would like to see OOTP do next. Find a way to expand each part of the season in such a way as to tell a story, not just add up numbers. Alas; but I also know storytelling is a human effort, not a computer effort.... at least for now.
I like your idea about the story but think it would be difficult to tailor a storyline to fit so many different types people play. And another note, I think it would just be outright easier for the game user (You) to create a storyline and add details and specifics rather than OOTP try to create you a bare bones general storyline without the details you would add and such.

But maybe I am missing something you are trying to get at. I think storyline based dynasty is far more interesting than a all stats dynasty. I am debating bringing my Arrington league to life but still deciding on a good way to tell my story like you Big City. I guess it's all trial and error til you find a writing style you like and captures your creation the best.

Once again, just giving my two cents on the topic and making conversation.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:07 PM   #7
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This is a great thread. I've started to struggle with managing multiple leagues in my dynasty now without overwhelming myself, and it's becoming more stats based than I'd like it to be. So I'm working through ideas to bring a story element back into the fold because ultimately I think BigCity is right, readers (rightfully) like to immerse themselves through a story, not through reading a glorified box score on the screen.

That said, I've gotten responses to both and try to aspire towards the way many of the posters that BigCity mentioned run their own dynasties. I think it's really all about reading what other people are doing and taking influences that you personally enjoy and using that as inspiration in your own dynasty. Even though you're posting for everyone else, you're also posting on behalf of *yourself*, and that's something that shouldn't be forgotten or overlooked. Ultimately if you like the way you are running your own dynasty, that's what you should keep doing it because even if people aren't responding with words, it can be very obvious that they are reading. That's what has kept me going in the year+ I've been chronicling my universe.

Just some food for thought - don't try to appease everyone, do what works for your own personal immersion first and foremost.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizeman21 View Post
I like your idea about the story but think it would be difficult to tailor a storyline to fit so many different types people play. And another note, I think it would just be outright easier for the game user (You) to create a storyline and add details and specifics rather than OOTP try to create you a bare bones general storyline without the details you would add and such.

But maybe I am missing something you are trying to get at. I think storyline based dynasty is far more interesting than a all stats dynasty. I am debating bringing my Arrington league to life but still deciding on a good way to tell my story like you Big City. I guess it's all trial and error til you find a writing style you like and captures your creation the best.

Once again, just giving my two cents on the topic and making conversation.

No problem - interesting stuff

What keeps rolling around in my head is a more definitive structure of the calendar year. For example; (this would only be done for the major(top) league)

Opening Day would have a handful of stories that talked about major changes to teams over the winter, and who got stronger and who weaker and what the goals of management were for the season. All of this information is in the game, but you have to go looking for it. It would be nice on a certain date a story came out pulling it all together.

Same thing for the Player draft. Who are the leading candidates; what teams could use what positions; what's the guess on the first 3 picks?

Trading Deadline. Similar to the draft. Who needs help where due to injury, etc.

Roster Expansion. Who is being called up, and how have they done. Who might stick for next year.

and Winter Meetings... this should be an "event". What kind of league rules/changes are the owners thinking about. What and how do they vote? Rumors about trades, and deep analysis of trades that occur during the meetings. If it's a washout (not much action), a little story about why teams were cautious.

Although the game has included these major steps to a season, it doesn't take advantage of "telling the story" when these things happen.

These are part of the "story". Our imaginations will be jump started by these stories. Some of us may copy/paste them into our posts - others will embellish upon them, the the story's existence will push us to tell our own stories.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:28 PM   #9
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In my short time playing OOTP and writing dynasties, the most important thing is finding something that interests you. If you focus on what you think will be interesting to others it won't last long.

I started my own one-state league that I now sim a couple times a week because it hasn't grabbed my attention like I thought it would.

I also have one where I am following just one player modeled after myself that I have grown extremely fond of. It will definitely keep me occupied for awhile to see how the career turns out.

One thing I have always wanted to try though was to go back in time and find games that had historical value. Bill Buckner's error, Kirk Gibson's HR, etc. and replay those games to see if things turn out differently.

In the end though, it's about finding your passion within the game. Get ideas from the various threads, fine tune it to your liking and run with it. If it doesn't work out, try something else.

I wish you luck though on finding your enjoyment!
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:12 PM   #10
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Some great comments - I totally agree with a lot of the comments. The number of times I have created, deleted and recreated my league is massive. I lose interest for whatever reason.

I wanted to do a dynasty for ages but kept not posting it because it was not perfect – “I will just redo the schedules or change the stadium data.” However the most interesting dynasties that I have followed are the ones that focus on the story lines like other people said (such dynasties as jwinbigler, reds1, chucksabr and metsgeek). I loved the out of game story lines like metsgeek’s plague league.

I tried playing real teams and real players but lost interest because you knew which players would do well. This was good as a non-baseball fan to learn the history of the game, we don’t hear a lot about baseball down in New Zealand, after a while though I started playing with fictional players and real teams but I found I still got attached to players from the teams that I supported in the real world. So I tried real world, fictional teams, fictional players and this kept me interested for a while. I have now ventured into completely fictional worlds and I can’t stop! It is a matter of finding your game your niche.

I also agree with the slowing down advice and also keeping your league small.
One thing that I have struggled with before writing a dynasty was being precious about my leagues and players. What I mean is one of the most interesting things that happen in sports is disappointment and tragedy - players finishing their careers at their peak for whatever reason, teams moving to a different city, "curses", tragedies like Hillsborough or major scandals like doping in cycling. I am writing this from personal experience as a Seattle Supersonic, Liverpool and one time Lance Armstrong fan .
Sometimes as difficult as these can be for fans they are a part of sport. I have tried to shake things up by throwing a spanner in the works to make my leagues interesting. I have found this especially useful when the league is starting to get stale. I find tinkering can also change my interest in the game. For example OOTP creates players based on player creation modifiers that evolve as the game does this means that they will create players within a bell type curve. Sports does not always work like that sometimes an incredible player comes along and changes the script guys like Gretzky, Jordan, Ruth and Messi come to mind. I have found that I have had to create these "ahead of the curve" players by editing the draft class and sometimes I will create two in the same class to see what kind of rivalry might happen – who will get more home runs? Who will the championships? What if they even played together? One of the great things about OOTP is that you can do this and so much more. I think a dynasty following a particular draft class would be great so many potential stories!
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:20 PM   #11
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Seasonal Report Format

I know, "Here he goes again about a newspaper format".

I understand this idea doesn't excite too many people, and I agree that all of this material is already in the game - however - I still believe that a seasonal summary similar to what I'm posting here would interest many game players who simply don't have the time or inclination to spend hours going through a hundred reports and pages upon pages of the almanac.

I took the first year of a recent league and laid out a format I think would be a great addition to the game. ALL of this is already there, but in a hundred different places. Here's the outline for a 6 team league (obviously a larger league would take more pages.

Page 1 - April results
Page 2 - May results
Page 3 - June results
Page 4 (or 4 and 5) - Draft results and All-Star game
Page 5 - July results
Page 6 - August results
Page 7 - September results
Page 8 (or more) - Playoffs
Page 9 - Awards
Page 10 (or more) - Off Season Report

The attached sample can be constructed as the season progresses, and it doesn't have to look exactly how I have put it together - but it provides a running commentary on the season in a Diary format. Further details can be found in the almanac, but this layout covers Opening Day to Opening Day and showcases the players that played the major roles for the season.

I copied-pasted everything from the game. A couple things surfaced, but nothing major. One story mentioned a signed free-agent new to the team when he was actually a re-sign (maybe the game can keep track of who signs with their previous team and who doesn't). Not all top free agents get a story when they sign - they should, and the team-by-team off-season WAR comparisons should be saved as a report in the almanac.

Anyway, feel free to comment - I think it would be a great game addition.


www.citygate.net/ootp/1947.pdf
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:12 AM   #12
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This is awesome! This would be a great help to dynasty writers. At least it would be perfect for me. This is exactly what i'm wanting to do for my dynasty. Especially if there was a way to post it. Maybe set it in html and you can export it to a website...

This way we can spend more time finding and writing the stories in our leagues.
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:05 PM   #13
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I wanted to state that I have nothing against the almanac. I remember when the "stats book" was a 3rd party add-on and almost all of us used it (can't remember the fellow that wrote the original one)... but when OOTP incorporated it into the game we all went Loo-Loo about all those stats.

My effort since then isn't a replacement for the Almanac, but an addition, that if anything, replaces (or improves) the News Stories currently in the game.

Two problems with the News Stories as they stand (1) They don't include everything that is going on in the league, and (2) They can't be exported into anything that can be printed.

I've asked for a few years now if they could be printed or saved between two dates, but nothing has happened yet.

BUT, the "REAL" shortcoming is a chronological narrative of the season. THAT is what my attempt above is designed to do... tell a story from Opening Day to Opening day, dividing the season into monthly blocks, with some added pages for drafts, the All-Star Game, the Playoffs, the Winter Meetings, the Off Season, and Major Trades (with team-to-team WAR comparisons.

This document would consist of about 12 pages and could be read beginning to end to get a full view of the season... THEN further details could be looked up in the Almanac.

I will continue to hope, and continue to ask for such an improvement because I think a number of OOTP players would enjoy such an addition.
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