Confused by Draft Pick Compensation

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

I suppose that the best option for the future is to make it a separate toggle from the 2012 CBA toggle.

I'd go further. Each CBA has its own particular regime in regards to free agency and associated compensation (as well as other rules), and each ought to be replicated as distinct regimes.

[actionjackson]

I dug up the list of guys who were not offered arbitration in November, 1905. There is no list of guys who were offered it, so I'm going to assume that anybody who was not on that list was offered arbitration. There were no players from the 27 compensatory free agents on that list. 26 of those players were signed. Only Don Gullett was not. So why is my compensation round just 11 picks long? Also, ten Type A players were signed, so why are there only nine compensatory picks? The Tigers were not given a pick from the Cardinals when the Cardinals signed Preacher Roe. The Cardinals lost three Type A free agents, and got picks for all three of them, yet they don't have to give up a pick for signing Preacher Roe? Confused would be putting it mildly. Baffled is more like it.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I dug up the list of guys who were not offered arbitration in November, 1905. There is no list of guys who were offered it, so I'm going to assume that anybody who was not on that list was offered arbitration. There were no players from the 27 compensatory free agents on that list. 26 of those players were signed. Only Don Gullett was not. So why is my compensation round just 11 picks long? Also, ten Type A players were signed, so why are there only nine compensatory picks? The Tigers were not given a pick from the Cardinals when the Cardinals signed Preacher Roe. The Cardinals lost three Type A free agents, and got picks for all three of them, yet they don't have to give up a pick for signing Preacher Roe? Confused would be putting it mildly. Baffled is more like it.

As I said, things get complicated when a team has multiple transactions. Say the Yankees sign 2 type A guys, but have one of their own type A's signed by someone else. In-game, unfortunately we only process things in the order that they come in, so say they lose the guy first and then sign the 2 guys. What's going to happen is that they gain a compensation pick, but then when they sign the 2 guys, they'll lose their first round pick and that compensation pick. So if you had 10 type As but only 9 compensation picks, it could be a case like that.

It's possible there's still a bug somewhere. Especially for a team like the Cards who lost 3 type As but signed 2 others, maybe something got lost in how the picks transferred. Maybe there was an issue with transferring picks after the season started? You've posted when everyone signed, if you can post the first few rounds of the draft, maybe we can work our way through and figure out what happened here.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Say the Yankees sign 2 type A guys, but have one of their own type A's signed by someone else. In-game, unfortunately we only process things in the order that they come in, so say they lose the guy first and then sign the 2 guys. What's going to happen is that they gain a compensation pick, but then when they sign the 2 guys, they'll lose their first round pick and that compensation pick.

I think the bolded might be the issue. If I recall correctly (and the particular CBA rules in effect probably also affect things), only a club's original picks—that is, the picks based on the prior season's final regular season standings—are lost in compensation for signing a free agent. Picks gained in compensation for losing a free agent are never affected.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

As I said, things get complicated when a team has multiple transactions. Say the Yankees sign 2 type A guys, but have one of their own type A's signed by someone else. In-game, unfortunately we only process things in the order that they come in, so say they lose the guy first and then sign the 2 guys. What's going to happen is that they gain a compensation pick, but then when they sign the 2 guys, they'll lose their first round pick and that compensation pick. So if you had 10 type As but only 9 compensation picks, it could be a case like that.

It's possible there's still a bug somewhere. Especially for a team like the Cards who lost 3 type As but signed 2 others, maybe something got lost in how the picks transferred. Maybe there was an issue with transferring picks after the season started? You've posted when everyone signed, if you can post the first few rounds of the draft, maybe we can work our way through and figure out what happened here.

Ok, here are the first four rounds of the draft plus the supplemental round. This represents all of the rounds where at least one compensatory pick was given up by one team to another team.

One thing to note is that this is the draft order as of September 17th, 1906 (draft pool reveal day). Therefore, the draft order will be rearranged once the offseason begins prior to the November 1st draft date in order to reflect the final standings of 1906. I guess I should probably post the draft order as of the first day of the offseason as well, just to cover all the bases.

I did notice in the 1905 draft, that there were 12 compensatory picks (not supplemental round, but picks where one team gave up its pick to another) on this date in 1905. This number dropped to 8 when the first day of the 1905/1906 offseason arrived, which was another head scratcher for me.

Obviously I can't go back and look up what the draft order looked like on these dates in 1905, so we'll have to work with what we've got here. I also can't go back and look up the free agent pool for the 1904/1905 season and what Type As and Type Bs there were and where they went and where they had played before, just mentioning that I did find the change from 12 to 8 a bit weird.

[Le Grande Orange]

Having read the relevant passages in the CBAs prior to 2012-16 agreement, my understanding of it is that ONLY regular draft picks are subject to being given to another club for signing that other club's free agent. The supplementary round picks, or as the CBA refers to them, 'special' picks, are NOT subject to being given to other clubs in compensation.

If OOTP is indeed giving away supplementary round picks as compensation for lost free agents, it should not be doing so when using CBA rules prior to the 2012-16 agreement.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Having read the relevant passages in the CBAs prior to 2012-16 agreement, my understanding of it is that ONLY regular draft picks are subject to being given to another club for signing that other club's free agent. The supplementary round picks, or as the CBA refers to them, 'special' picks, are NOT subject to being given to other clubs in compensation.

If OOTP is indeed giving away supplementary round picks as compensation for lost free agents, it should not be doing so when using CBA rules prior to the 2012-16 agreement.

I believe what OOTP does is give a supplementary round pick to the team that lost a free agent, but it does not take that pick from the team that signed. It's quite possible that I have my head up my ass on that one though, and I may have misread what Matt outlined above.

It's all a bit murky to me. I would think there should be 10 compensatory picks scattered throughout the first few rounds, depending on how greedy teams were with free agents, and whether or not they had a protected pick, and 26 supplemental round picks handed out, but not taken from other teams. At least that would seem to me to be the most logical way to do it, but I could be completely off my rocker. Not the first time, won't be the last.

EDIT: Actually, that would be 25 supplemental round picks because Dave Revering left the Pirates, and signed with...the Pirates.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

- Teams signing multiple Type As lose their highest remaining pick. Has nothing to do with rankings of the FAs that are being lost. For example, if NYY signs the #20 Type A FA from BAL in November, and then NYY signs the #10 Type A FA from BOS in December, BAL gets the higher pick from NYY since they signed the first FA chronologically. In real MLB, BOS would get the higher pick since they signed the higher ranked Type A FA.
- Unlike MLB, compensation picks are unprotected. If Team 1 gets a compensation pick from Team 2, and then Team 2 signs a Type A FA from Team 3, that compensation pick can be taken by Team 3 if it's Team 2's highest unprotected pick in the draft. For example, NYY has the 12th overall pick in the draft out of 20, but signs a type A FA from STL - now STL has the 12th pick to go with their original 16th pick. But later in the offseason, STL signs a type A FA from BOS. Since the 12th pick is STL's highest unprotected pick, now BOS gets that 12th pick instead.

Totally get the first point. Crystal clear.

But...In your second example, what happens to the pick that STL should've gotten from NYY? Factoring in that the Yankees have already lost a pick to BOS as a result of them signing a STL free agent, and that pick being STL's highest unprotected pick. Surely you can't make NYY give up two picks for signing one free agent. Yet if you don't, STL is S.O.L. and they don't get compensation for losing a free agent to NYY.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I believe what OOTP does is give a supplementary round pick to the team that lost a free agent, but it does not take that pick from the team that signed. It's quite possible that I have my head up my ass on that one though, and I may have misread what Matt outlined above.

It's all a bit murky to me. I would think there should be 10 compensatory picks scattered throughout the first few rounds, depending on how greedy teams were with free agents, and whether or not they had a protected pick, and 26 supplemental round picks handed out, but not taken from other teams.

In the free agency system used from 2007-11, there were two types of free agent (A and B), and compensation awarded as follows: for Type A, a regular draft pick from the signing team plus a pick in the supplemental round; Type B, a pick in the supplemental round. First round regular picks in the top half were exempt, meaning a club with a selection in the top half of the round would start with losing their highest regular pick in the second round. Picks that were awarded as compensation for failing to sign a draft pick the prior year were excluded from both these considerations. A club was only eligible for draft pick compensation for its lost Type A or B free agents if it had offered the player arbitration by Dec. 1st.

In real life, there was also a quota system, where a club could only sign a certain number of Type A or B free agents based on the total number of free agents that off-season. The exception to this was that a club was also permitted to sign as many free agents as it lost.

Those were the real-world procedures. Not sure how closely OOTP mimicked all this.

[MisterTidster]

Out of curiosity, from an OOTP perspective, has anyone had success bundling not quite major league quality prospects in exchange for high price expiring contracts at the trade deadline, forcing the dealing team to retain all or most of the salary, for the purpose of acquiring additional 1st round supplemental picks?

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by MisterTidster

Out of curiosity, from an OOTP perspective, has anyone had success bundling not quite major league quality prospects in exchange for high price expiring contracts at the trade deadline, forcing the dealing team to retain all or most of the salary, for the purpose of acquiring additional 1st round supplemental picks?

Ah yes, the old Alex Anthopoulos strategy before MLB and MLBPA stepped in and changed the rules in the 2012 CBA. I suppose this might be possible if you were using pre-2012 CBA rules, but in the 2012 CBA when a player was traded during the season, he no longer had compensation of any kind attached to him regardless of how good he was. You'd have to figure this out for yourself (unless other people chime in), as I don't run a team, I just play as commissioner/historian/god/record keeper of my league.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Ah yes, the old Alex Anthopoulos strategy before MLB and MLBPA stepped in and changed the rules in the 2012 CBA. I suppose this might be possible if you were using pre-2012 CBA rules, but in the 2012 CBA when a player was traded during the season, he no longer had compensation of any kind attached to him regardless of how good he was.

There had been talk for several years before that CBA about how teams were stacking their draft picks by picking up players in the last year of their contracts, then when that player signed elsewhere, getting compensation picks, in spite of only having that player for a few months. Undoubtedly there was enough dissatisfaction with that on both the players' and owners' side to insert the requirement that a player had to be with the same club in order to be eligible for draft pick compensation.

What's interesting is that the same free agent system was used from 1990 to 2006 (and it probably started with 1985; I can't confirm that, but if fits with the data I do have). There were a few tweaks over that time, but no major changes. Then the 2007-11 CBA put in some notable changes, the system was changed again in the 2012-16 CBA; the current CBA is generally similar to the prior one.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Ok, here are the first four rounds of the draft plus the supplemental round. This represents all of the rounds where at least one compensatory pick was given up by one team to another team.

One thing to note is that this is the draft order as of September 17th, 1906 (draft pool reveal day). Therefore, the draft order will be rearranged once the offseason begins prior to the November 1st draft date in order to reflect the final standings of 1906. I guess I should probably post the draft order as of the first day of the offseason as well, just to cover all the bases.

I did notice in the 1905 draft, that there were 12 compensatory picks (not supplemental round, but picks where one team gave up its pick to another) on this date in 1905. This number dropped to 8 when the first day of the 1905/1906 offseason arrived, which was another head scratcher for me.

Obviously I can't go back and look up what the draft order looked like on these dates in 1905, so we'll have to work with what we've got here. I also can't go back and look up the free agent pool for the 1904/1905 season and what Type As and Type Bs there were and where they went and where they had played before, just mentioning that I did find the change from 12 to 8 a bit weird.

Matt: I realize you may be on vacation or otherwise occupied, but any word on this post (see attached images of post #25)? Haven't conducted my draft yet, but would like to know. Also noticed that once again the number of compensatory picks dropped, this time from nine on September 17 to eight at the end of the postseason. The compensatory pick that disappeared was the pick that was supposed to go from the Cardinals to the Browns for the Cardinals' signing of Jim Clancy. This meant that the Cardinals were going to pick up three picks for their Type As that were signed away by other teams, without having to surrender any picks for the two Type As that they signed, which I saw as completely unfair. The other Type A that they signed in the 1905/1906 offseason was Preacher Roe, who had pitched for the Tigers in 1905. What the heck?

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There had been talk for several years before that CBA about how teams were stacking their draft picks by picking up players in the last year of their contracts, then when that player signed elsewhere, getting compensation picks, in spite of only having that player for a few months. Undoubtedly there was enough dissatisfaction with that on both the players' and owners' side to insert the requirement that a player had to be with the same club in order to be eligible for draft pick compensation.

What's interesting is that the same free agent system was used from 1990 to 2006 (and it probably started with 1985; I can't confirm that, but if fits with the data I do have). There were a few tweaks over that time, but no major changes. Then the 2007-11 CBA put in some notable changes, the system was changed again in the 2012-16 CBA; the current CBA is generally similar to the prior one.

What were the changes in 2007?

[Matt Arnold]

Yeah, I'm confused by this too. Can you send over your league file? I think I need to step through internally what's going on here to understand things

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Yeah, I'm confused by this too. Can you send over your league file? I think I need to step through internally what's going on here to understand things

Never sent league file before. Brief how-to would help. Went ahead and held the draft anyway, giving out 10 compensatory picks for the ten type A guys, and 25 picks in the supplemental round (27, with no pick for Revering [re-signed with Pirates] or Gullett [did not sign]). Had to re-organize draft order to do that, and thanks to the handy dandy export/import feature I was able to do that pretty easily.

[Matt Arnold]

http://support.ootpdevelopments.com/...p-developments

Would have rather had the files from before the draft If you still have an autosave folder from before, or a backup from before the draft, that would be perfect.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

http://support.ootpdevelopments.com/...p-developments

Would have rather had the files from before the draft If you still have an autosave folder from before, or a backup from before the draft, that would be perfect.

I do have a backup from before the draft that I made yesterday. I see 17 .dat files, not 16. Is that right? Assuming it is, sending it now.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I do have a backup from before the draft that I made yesterday. I see 17 .dat files, not 16. Is that right? Assuming it is, sending it now.

Yeah, just send them all. Thanks!

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Yeah, just send them all. Thanks!

I can copy the .zip folder from my computer, but for some reason it's not allowing me to paste it to the FTP site.