Do handedness ratings include natural tendencies?

satchel · 01-28-2003, 04:07 PM

Do right- and left-handed ratings include natural handedness tendencies, or should one ‘manually’ figure those in? For example, if a right-handed batter is rated 5 in ‘avg. vs left,’ and a left-handed batter is also rated 5 in ‘avg. vs left,’ can I assume that the 5 of the righty is superior to that of the lefty, due to the natural propensity of a right-hander to bat better against lefties? Or is that already figured in?

In the game, many righties are rated lower versus righties, and the same with lefties. I didn’t know if that was a complete representation of the natural same-vs-same batter’s disadvantage, or whether I should be figuring that in, on top of the ratings.

JAttractive · 01-28-2003, 04:39 PM

This is all just opinion here:

I think you would still see the righty do better against lefties on *average* not because of a code for the handedness directly but rather because pitchers tend to have this same system of having higher ratings against one type of batter. Most pitchers have slightly higher values vs. their same handedness so the leftie batter might be facing the same pitcher but be put up against a higher rating set. Not all pitchers follow this trend but on average the leftie would see higher ratings vs. LHP so he would suffer somewhat.

For both pitchers and hitters you have guys who don't follow the handedness trends so I don't think they would code a hidden bonus in. Instead I assume it is already figured in through the split ratings of both hitters *and* the pitchers.

Does that make sense? The way the game generates players is to have (typically) higher ratings against one hand and lower vs. the other according to what they are and this is for both pitchers and hitters. If you were to create players completely from scratch I imagine you would need to account for this then and follow the same trend. If however you are using created players there is no need to touch things.

satchel · 01-28-2003, 05:44 PM

I attach great significance to the handedness when making lineups (I usually platoon at least half my hitters, to take advantage of handedness). But I am going to have to change some of my lineups if the handedness advantage is already expressed in the players’ ratings, because I have been assuming that there is a ‘hidden’ bonus that was just natural. For example, I have always assumed that a righty’s 4 versus lefties was at least equal, and probably better than, a lefty’s 5 versus lefties, due to natural tendencies. In that way, the game could still be preserving the inconsistency of the natural inclination (a few righties hit righties better, etc.) by having the handedness advantage ‘hidden’ or built-in, and then being adjusted by the numerical ratings (for example, a righty who hits righties better would have his natural disadvantage against righties cancelled out by having a higher numerical rating in that category).

satchel · 01-29-2003, 12:41 PM

This is the question that nobody knows,
Like a Zen koan, wearing different clothes.

Draft Dodger · 01-29-2003, 01:29 PM

I have to disagree with JAttractive.

While I haven't done full scientific studies, but it seems to me that a RH with a 5 ratings against lefties will fare better than a LH with a 5 rating against lefties. I think there is some slight handedness advantage built in.

of course, IIRC, the ratings aren't integers - "5" could mean 5.1 or 5.9. if I'm correct in that, it would be even more difficult to find the real answer.

satchel · 01-29-2003, 03:04 PM

Thanx DD.

darkhorse · 01-29-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
While I haven't done full scientific studies, but it seems to me that a RH with a 5 ratings against lefties will fare better than a LH with a 5 rating against lefties. I think there is some slight handedness advantage built in.

Amen to that. I have seen to often, great HOF quality left-handed hitters bat miserably agaist LHP.

TwinsFan · 01-29-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JAttractive
I think you would still see the righty do better against lefties on *average* not because of a code for the handedness directly but rather because pitchers tend to have this same system of having higher ratings against one type of batter. Most pitchers have slightly higher values vs. their same handedness so the leftie batter might be facing the same pitcher but be put up against a higher rating set. Not all pitchers follow this trend but on average the leftie would see higher ratings vs. LHP so he would suffer somewhat.

I agree.

This is why I love switch hitters, they play on the pitchers weakness every time. Except of course for that rare paradox pitcher.

From what i've seen a switchy with a "5" for average will hit about as good as a RH batter with a "6".

satchel · 01-29-2003, 03:58 PM

These later conclusions are more in line with what I had thought all along.

JAttractive · 01-29-2003, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
I have to disagree with JAttractive.

While I haven't done full scientific studies, but it seems to me that a RH with a 5 ratings against lefties will fare better than a LH with a 5 rating against lefties. I think there is some slight handedness advantage built in.

of course, IIRC, the ratings aren't integers - "5" could mean 5.1 or 5.9. if I'm correct in that, it would be even more difficult to find the real answer.

Yes the decimal places can mess any comparison up so this is probably partly accounting for some of the discrepancies.

I still think my explanation jives with what you are saying though. As TwinsFan said the opposing handed batter is preying on the weakness of the pitcher. You can both be 5 and 5 but most pitcher's are never an equal 5 and 5 (with all decimal places the same) against both hands. He may be 6 vs. rights and 5 vs. lefts such that the rightie still does better. Look at a bunch of LHP and you will see that they tend to have higher ratings vs. LHB. RHP have this same trend but with RHB. Over a large test then the RHB should do better against LHP and LHB vs. RHP because of this even if they have the same rating initially.

So you have two trends at work here. One is that batter themselves tend to fare better against their opposing armed pitcher and the second is that pitchers do better against similar armed batters. If you control for the difference in one category (ie. two batters with the same value to the decimal) the second trend will still affect you and give differing results.

satchel · 01-30-2003, 02:35 PM

Thanks for your input. I realized after I’d made my last post that it was kind of equivocal, endorsing a couple of different stances as if they were the same. I understand where you (both, or actually, all three) are coming from though.

01-28-2003, 04:07 PM	#1
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	Do handedness ratings include natural tendencies? Do right- and left-handed ratings include natural handedness tendencies, or should one ‘manually’ figure those in? For example, if a right-handed batter is rated 5 in ‘avg. vs left,’ and a left-handed batter is also rated 5 in ‘avg. vs left,’ can I assume that the 5 of the righty is superior to that of the lefty, due to the natural propensity of a right-hander to bat better against lefties? Or is that already figured in? In the game, many righties are rated lower versus righties, and the same with lefties. I didn’t know if that was a complete representation of the natural same-vs-same batter’s disadvantage, or whether I should be figuring that in, on top of the ratings.

01-28-2003, 05:44 PM	#3
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	handy I attach great significance to the handedness when making lineups (I usually platoon at least half my hitters, to take advantage of handedness). But I am going to have to change some of my lineups if the handedness advantage is already expressed in the players’ ratings, because I have been assuming that there is a ‘hidden’ bonus that was just natural. For example, I have always assumed that a righty’s 4 versus lefties was at least equal, and probably better than, a lefty’s 5 versus lefties, due to natural tendencies. In that way, the game could still be preserving the inconsistency of the natural inclination (a few righties hit righties better, etc.) by having the handedness advantage ‘hidden’ or built-in, and then being adjusted by the numerical ratings (for example, a righty who hits righties better would have his natural disadvantage against righties cancelled out by having a higher numerical rating in that category).

01-29-2003, 12:41 PM	#4
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	Ratta This is the question that nobody knows, Like a Zen koan, wearing different clothes.

01-29-2003, 01:29 PM	#5
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	I have to disagree with JAttractive. While I haven't done full scientific studies, but it seems to me that a RH with a 5 ratings against lefties will fare better than a LH with a 5 rating against lefties. I think there is some slight handedness advantage built in. of course, IIRC, the ratings aren't integers - "5" could mean 5.1 or 5.9. if I'm correct in that, it would be even more difficult to find the real answer. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

01-29-2003, 03:58 PM	#9
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	Conch. These later conclusions are more in line with what I had thought all along. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

01-28-2003, 04:39 PM	#2
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	This is all just opinion here: I think you would still see the righty do better against lefties on average not because of a code for the handedness directly but rather because pitchers tend to have this same system of having higher ratings against one type of batter. Most pitchers have slightly higher values vs. their same handedness so the leftie batter might be facing the same pitcher but be put up against a higher rating set. Not all pitchers follow this trend but on average the leftie would see higher ratings vs. LHP so he would suffer somewhat. For both pitchers and hitters you have guys who don't follow the handedness trends so I don't think they would code a hidden bonus in. Instead I assume it is already figured in through the split ratings of both hitters and the pitchers. Does that make sense? The way the game generates players is to have (typically) higher ratings against one hand and lower vs. the other according to what they are and this is for both pitchers and hitters. If you were to create players completely from scratch I imagine you would need to account for this then and follow the same trend. If however you are using created players there is no need to touch things.

01-29-2003, 03:04 PM	#6
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	Thanx DD.

01-30-2003, 02:35 PM	#11
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	input Thanks for your input. I realized after I’d made my last post that it was kind of equivocal, endorsing a couple of different stances as if they were the same. I understand where you (both, or actually, all three) are coming from though. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59