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01-22-2019, 11:18 PM | #1 |
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Historic ballparks we don't have
Perhaps someone out there has some of these or wants to work on them. These are parks that the existing MLB franchises played in at some point that we don't have. Adion and Silvam have every park from about 1910-present.
Braves South End Grounds 1876-1887 South End Grounds 1888-1894 South End Grounds 1894-1915 Orioles Lloyd Street Grounds 1901 Red Sox Huntington Avenue Grounds 1901-1911 Cubs 23rd Street Grounds 1876-1877 Lake Front Park 1878-1882 Lake Front Park 1883-1884 West Side Park 1885-1890 South Side Park 1891-1893 West Side Park 1894-1915 White Sox South Side Park 1901-1909 Reds Bank Street Grounds 1882-1883 League Park 1884-1893 League Park 1894-1901 Palace of the Fans 1902-1911 Tigers Bennett Park 1901-1911 Indians League Park 1901-1909 Dodgers Washington Park 1884-1889 Washington Park 1890 Eastern Park 1891-1897 Washington Park 1898-1912 Twins American League Park 1901-1903 American League Park 1904-1910 Yankees Oriole Park 1901-1902 Hilltop Park 1903-1911 Athletics Columbia Park 1901-1908 Phillies Recreation Park 1883-1886 Philadelphia Baseball Grounds 1887-1894 Pirates Recreation Park 1882-1884 Recreation Park 1885-1890 Exposition Park 1891-1908 Giants Polo Grounds 1883-1888 Polo Grounds 1889-1890 Polo Grounds 1891-1910 Cardinals Sportsmans Park 1882-1892 Robison Field 1893-1919 |
01-27-2019, 01:18 PM | #2 |
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Detroit Tigers - Briggs Stadium, yes i know it was called Tiger Stadium but he has Navin Field 1936 then nothing til Tiger Stadium 1970.
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01-27-2019, 03:38 PM | #3 |
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He has a Briggs Field 1938-1947, Tiger Stadium 1948-1979, and Tiger Stadium 1980-1999.
I went through every team and as far as I could tell the only gaps we have in ballparks are what I listed in the first post. |
01-27-2019, 05:39 PM | #4 |
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Adion does, Silvam does not. i'm using Adions Briggs.
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Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong" |
02-01-2019, 10:03 AM | #5 |
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Sacramento CA...Hughes Stadium
Salt Lake City...Bonneville Park These would be "entertaining" to add!
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02-06-2019, 01:15 PM | #6 |
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Good luck finding information on some of those wooden ballparks from the 19th century. There are no photographs of some of them, such as Lakefront Park in Chicago. There's only one known photograph of the Lloyd St Grounds (Milwaukee), and only a couple of photos of the original Sportsman's Park in St Louis that I'm aware of. In some cases, it's not even clear where the park was located.
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03-24-2019, 10:16 PM | #7 |
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Here's an update:
Braves South End Grounds 1876-1887 South End Grounds 1888-1894 South End Grounds 1894-1915 - DONE Orioles Lloyd Street Grounds 1901 - DONE Red Sox Huntington Avenue Grounds 1901-1911 - DONE Cubs 23rd Street Grounds 1876-1877 Lake Front Park 1878-1882 Lake Front Park 1883-1884 West Side Park 1885-1890 South Side Park 1891-1893 West Side Grounds 1894-1915 - DONE White Sox South Side Park 1901-1909 - DONE Reds Bank Street Grounds 1882-1883 League Park 1884-1893 League Park 1894-1901 - DONE Palace of the Fans 1902-1911 Tigers Bennett Park 1901-1911 - DONE Indians League Park 1901-1909 - DONE Dodgers Washington Park 1884-1889 Washington Park 1890 Eastern Park 1891-1897 Washington Park 1898-1912 - DONE Twins American League Park 1901-1903 - DONE American League Park 1904-1910 Yankees Oriole Park 1901-1902 - DONE Hilltop Park 1903-1911 Athletics Columbia Park 1901-1908 - DONE Phillies Recreation Park 1883-1886 Philadelphia Baseball Grounds 1887-1894 Pirates Recreation Park 1882-1884 Recreation Park 1885-1890 Exposition Park 1891-1908 - DONE Giants Polo Grounds 1883-1888 Polo Grounds 1889-1890 Polo Grounds 1891-1910 - DONE Cardinals Sportsmans Park 1882-1892 Robison Field 1893-1919 - DONE
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03-25-2019, 06:04 PM | #8 |
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This is great, silvam. Thank you for your work. Just a few more to go and we'll have every park since 1901.
Palace of the Fans 1902-1911 American League Park 1904-1910 Hilltop Park 1903-1911 Are you working on these as well? |
03-25-2019, 07:04 PM | #9 | |
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Quote:
possibly have those done this week
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03-30-2019, 10:02 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
Couldn't the descriptions of those ballparks be used with a little fictional imagination? Just use the information that is available. Maybe even take some fictional ballparks and adjust them to that era. There seems to be enough info for the game to set dimensions. Maybe some basic ones with just fences and gradually getting more complex with billboards of the day. It may not be exact but it would be better than nothing. I wish i had the talent to do it. |
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03-30-2019, 12:49 PM | #11 | |
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I imagine that purists wouldn't be satisfied with that solution, but for some of those early ballparks there's practically no information available. For instance, the Boston franchise played its first twelve NL seasons at the South End Grounds (I), yet there is no information about the field dimensions. A Google image search for "South End Grounds" invariably brings up images of the third South End Grounds, which was the team's home from 1894 to 1914, and a number of sites make the mistake of assuming that the three ballparks named "South End Grounds" were all the same ballpark. This photo (source) is the only one that I could find that shows even a portion of the original park: We know some basic information about the park, largely because it was on the same site as the two successive "South End Grounds," but exact information is almost impossible to come by. Does that matter? Not to me, but I suppose others might have a problem with incorporating a "conjectural" South End Grounds in the game. |
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03-30-2019, 03:24 PM | #12 | |
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When simming from that era i find the fictional setup the game uses hard to accept as we have the information and can do something about it. But when it comes to getting every trade date correct, i am more lenient at just gettting the players and teams correct when no date is available. No it may not be the exact South End Grounds of those years but we could have an educated guess at what it looked like. I'm not sure that even purists would get upset since there is no data. I think they would get upset if the ballparks were modeled after Three Rivers Stadium or even the retro parks. If its done in the style of the 19th century parks and is an option then it might work. Anything close would be better than feeling like every game is on the same field. |
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03-30-2019, 04:24 PM | #13 |
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I'm not someone who can actually MAKE the 3D ballparks, but I can sure gather info on the ballparks we don't have- at least as much info that's available.
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03-30-2019, 04:38 PM | #14 |
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I'll go with the list from Garlon. Starting with the Braves:
South End Grounds I (1876-1887) Found no new photos, but potential dimensions info: LF 250, CF 440, RF 255. South End Grounds II (1888-1894) Photos: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...54068409198883 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...54068409198883 http://www.19cbaseball.com/rules-2.html Dimensions: "The dimensions of the outfield were 250 feet from home base in left field, 445 feet in left center, 500 feet to straight away center field, 440 feet in right center and 255 feet in right field." I'll cover the Cubs a little later. Last edited by Dingers5Days; 03-30-2019 at 04:47 PM. |
03-30-2019, 05:11 PM | #15 |
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What the heck, I'll do it now.
23rd Street Grounds Just about no information available. It's reported the outfield dimensions were "short", and this barely passes as a photo: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...54069215715081 Lake Front Park (1878-1884) Photos: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...54069344233975 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...54069344233975 Dimensions: The only just about confirmed dimensions of the park is that right field was ridiculously short at 190-200 feet. Balls hit over the right field fence were called ground rule doubles until 1884, when HRs spiked that season for Chicago. Nothing else is confirmed, but my guesses on other dimensions is 220-250 feet in left and 430-490 in center. West Side Park 1885-1890 Photos: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ark_ca1885.JPG Dimensions: 216 in right, 560 in center. The left field dimensions are unknown, but considering the property, left field was probably very similar to left, probably about 215-240 feet. South Side Park (1891-1893) Just about no information available. The dimensions were most likely dissimilar to the following South Side Park, as it was located on a different property. |
03-30-2019, 08:37 PM | #16 | |
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American-Ethnic (and Canadian) Namesets Historical Minor League Schedules 1870s City/Team Nickname Randomizers "It's Usually Sunny in Philadelphia" weather mod Last edited by joefromchicago; 03-30-2019 at 08:51 PM. |
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04-06-2019, 11:16 PM | #17 |
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South End Grounds I
An artist's rendition from an 1876 trade card:
Offered for the first time (as best we could determine) is a very rare 1876 trade card advertising "Barb Fence Armor." Barb wire was first patented in 1868 making this a very early promotion for the product which was popular with farmers and ranchers. It seems it was also a favored part of the stadium for the Boston Base Ball Grounds (also known as South End Grounds) as the the front displays a wood cut scene of a game being played plus surrounding buildings. The back copy conveys the testimonial of N.F. Apolonio, President. https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...a/7041-80002.s |
04-07-2019, 05:24 PM | #18 |
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The Herald Ham Nine baseball team pose for a group portrait at the South End Grounds in Boston, Massachusetts. 1880 would've been the South End Grounds I.
Last edited by the_mad_monk; 04-07-2019 at 05:27 PM. |
04-08-2019, 09:58 AM | #19 |
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Excellent find! That, together with the 1875 photo, can give us a pretty good idea of what the grandstand at the original South End Grounds looked like, which could then form the basis for a historically faithful recreation of the ballpark. Of course, we still don't know what the field dimensions were, but since the OOTP game engine doesn't care, I'm not sure why we should.
A few more observations: 1. The owners of the Red Stockings were notorious penny-pinchers, so perhaps it's no surprise that they would be installing barbed-wire on top of the fences to keep out freeloaders. Still, nothing says "fun at the old ballpark" quite like a wall that makes the place look like a prison. 2. The field dimensions, if they exist, typically show the distances from home plate to the outfield fence, but one thing they often leave out is the amount of foul territory behind the plate and down the lines. In the ballparks of the nineteenth century, foul ground was often enormous, especially when measured by today's standards. The trade card gives some feel for that, although the artist's rendition is all screwed up and the perspective is downright weird. The current minimum distance from home plate to the backstop (60 feet) was only instituted in the 1930s. Before then, the minimum distance was 90 feet, and often it was more than that. The reason was simple: there was no netting protecting the fans behind home plate and down the lines from errant foul balls, so seats had to be a safe distance from the batter. That also explains why the grandstand at South End Grounds and those at other ballparks were so high. That can be seen in the photo, which shows that the wall behind home plate is, I estimate, at least 10' tall. 3. Another feature that the photo shows is the board fence in front of the grandstand. That wasn't unique to the South End Grounds - the Messer Street Grounds in Providence had something similar. At Providence, I've read that the locker rooms were underneath the grandstands, so the fence protected players going to and from the clubhouse. At Boston, there were evidently concession stands there. What's unusual is that the Boston management put bleachers between the fence and the grandstand, thereby squeezing a couple dozen more paying customers into the park at the risk, no doubt, of killing a few each season due to foul balls. That board fence wasn't there to protect the fans - presumably no one was sitting directly behind it. Instead, it was clearly just a backstop for balls so they wouldn't roll under the bleachers. The fans had to watch out for themselves. 4. As the trade card shows, canvas sheets were installed on the wall down the first base side to prevent people in the houses across the street from seeing the games for free. That is something that is timeless - Connie Mack did the same thing at Shibe Park in the 1910s, and the Cubs were still doing it in the 1990s at Wrigley Field.
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04-08-2019, 11:28 AM | #20 |
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Another photo from Messer Street Grounds featuring both the Grays and Boston from 1878.
Last edited by the_mad_monk; 04-08-2019 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Changed referenced photo date from 1879 to 1878 per NY Public Library |
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